[PE] Hotchkiss

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[TheWindCriesMary]

You'll notice in this thread I have asked a bunch of questions about range in particular and prefaced saying I could easily be wrong. Prove me wrong on stats, it's welcome and sometimes very needed. I'm going to keep challenging the areas (namely in-game evidence or metagame trends) where I think you're sometimes very wrong as well.

Range 45? Try 40. Same as the allied counterparts.

Is it just 40? That's more than reasonable. I had been under the impression from Colossus they were 45 range.  Is it the upgun that is 45 or are no hotch variants 45?

High Rof? 4-6 Seconds is fast compared to what? A Sherman reloads in 6.

4-6 seconds? Is it 4 or 6? Or is it somewhere in between? 4 is fast quite honestly, very fast. For its accuracy and great damage, as well as ability to kill multiple men in one shot on occasion, that's tremendous. It really becomes evident in game which is part of why we've seen so much serious evidence in multiple games and players getting 20-40 kills on these things reliably. Something no unit at that price point or pop point should be managing consistently.

Speed? 6.5, an M8 is 6.4

So it's faster than an m8, has comparable anti-inf killing power (arguably better from what I've seen in game but I could easily be wrong) AND can easily manhandle the greyhound 1v1? That seems to hurt your argument rather than help it.

Whatever the problem with the unit is, the reasons you describe are clearly comparable to allied vehicles in this area.

You compared it to a medium tank that costs far more and then to a light vehicle that it is significantly better than and dramatically more used in the current metagame.

As for the armor you do realize the 37 hotch will bounce off stuart armor, right?

I'm not sure how the un upgunned hotch bouncing off a stuart is somehow related to the quality of its own armour.


I think you definitely have the stats knowledge, but application of them in this thread I don't feel has been effective in these two instances. I think stats are valuable but don't always tell the whole story of in-game variables etc.

[terrapinsrock]

Even medium players can rack up 30 kills on one in a game without breaking much of a sweat. (happened in 2 games that I was in last night that were fairly balanced teams)

Auwwww yeeeeeeeah my vet 2 hotch stuka in one game

but don't mess with mah hotchkisses

[NightRain]

One step backward.

Hotchkiss Upgun has fast rate of fire and (If I recall correctly 50 damage) per shot. No modifiers aside vs Light vehicles (minor damage decreases). Their range is 45 which means they outrange every common medium tank and vehicle. They are good only in packs and single ones are minor annoyances. Poor versus infantry

Hotchkiss like its counter part in most parts except it is decent versus infantry (better than stuart) 40 range and normal reload compared to upgun variant with a faster reload. Also worse penetration and will not be able to effectively take on most medium tanks. It however can fight versus infantry better than upgun one but don't expect it to be a god.

Stuart's better than hotchkiss for it has better damage in terms of modifiers.

[aeroblade56]

my bad im willing to take the fall for all this hocus pocus. at least the range and damage stuff.

i was under the impression that the gun was actually correctly put into PE.

under checking the hardpoints turns out the weapon is for some stupid reason in the Wehr weapons.(the hell?)

(then wtf uses the 50 h35 upguns?)

Also i did ask nikomas to confirm but he decided not to respond so thats not my fault.

Bolt: look up upgun hotch
Bolt: and confirm

[jackmccrack]

A damage nerf to the normal Hotch, and a pen nerf to the upgun Hotch, is in order?

[TheWindCriesMary]

A damage nerf to the normal Hotch, and a pen nerf to the upgun Hotch, is in order?

I think that's probably a good start: a slight damage nerf for normal hotch.

For the upgun though I think maybe the best course would be a slight rof and range nerf might be ideal. Perhaps reducing the upgun hotch to 40 range from 45 (going off Nightrain's stat here) would be better as having it outrange all its axis and allied counterparts to me seems a red flag.

[Korpisolttu]

If you're doing more than the range nerf (which is still pretty acceptable) you're making it another useless and unused unit.
They might be good at killing and moving, but they're still weak on armor/HP and gets hit pretty often without bottom luft t4. So without remarkable time spent into microing them they'll get for 100% sure hit and often die before even having chance to even rep unless youre super scared of losing them. As allies LV spam flank works effectively when timed right, best counter against it is teller spam, same could work against hotses.

I lost all of my hots stukas (except the lb one I call more rarely and keep behind the lines) during today's 6 losing spree inspite of good effort trying to win with okay-good players. AVREs killing, m10 & lv flanks raping OP QQ axis. I'm starting to realize that allies aren't actually worse than axis, it was just that most of the allies pro players were too used to their full PP t4s and now they're starting to use the right units and tactics to win games. So I'm not claiming that allies are better, but now I start to realize that early war is after all pretty even and balanced.

[TheWindCriesMary]

If you're doing more than the range nerf (which is still pretty acceptable) you're making it another useless and unused unit.
They might be good at killing and moving, but they're still weak on armor/HP and gets hit pretty often without bottom luft t4. So without remarkable time spent into microing them they'll get for 100% sure hit and often die before even having chance to even rep unless youre super scared of losing them.

But wouldn't bringing them down to 40 range and a slight ROF decrease just make them more in line with every other common LV in the game that serves a comparable role?

[NightRain]

But wouldn't bringing them down to 40 range and a slight ROF decrease just make them more in line with every other common LV in the game that serves a comparable role?

It is a mini M10. That's what Upgun hotchkiss is. Dangerous in packs weaker when solo.

[TheWindCriesMary]

But the "dangerous in packs but weaker when solo" by-line is true of any LV. That doesn't effectively distinguish the upgun hotch in any way.

Its closest comparable unit should be the current stuart or the upgun puma, shouldn't it?

[XIIcorps]

maybe we really do need the light tank tag for some units, so as to seperate them from actual lvs.

[Korpisolttu]

Yeah it can't crush like m10 and m10 can take averagely one more shot before dying.

[NightRain]

But the "dangerous in packs but weaker when solo" by-line is true of any LV. That doesn't effectively distinguish the upgun hotch in any way.

Its closest comparable unit should be the current stuart or the upgun puma, shouldn't it?

Perhaps? Perhaps not. It is difficult to compare it to these two. To compare a vehicle to these two it'd be the 37mm Hotchkiss at best as it is like a child of stuart and upgun puma. Decent versus pretty much anything except mediums and heavies. The hotchkiss upgun, I can not find a good comparison to any other light vehicle. Basically it is a light version of M10 like T17 is a light version of a ostwind.

[TheWindCriesMary]

It performs the exact same role as the Stuart and Upgun puma though. Fast, mobile, relatively cheap/low pop, very poor (generally speaking) versus infantry and terrific in packs.

The only thing that makes it not like these units is that it has 5 extra range. It has all their other features minus this one outlier.

On the countrary, it has numerous ways in which it is not like an m10: no crush, cost, pop, totally different order of magnitude on the damage scale etc.

It seems a bigger stretch to make the leap that it's a mini m10 than it does to say it's a puma/stuart for PE

[XIIcorps]

So are we arguing the upgun hotch is too good at being an AT vech, or that the regular 37mm hotch is too good at AI ?

im lost.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I'd say, the normal hotch is slightly too good at AI and the upgun hotch has a ROF and anomalous range of 45 that make it far too effective compared to its comparable counterparts on both axis and allies.

[nikomas]

Is in your above comparison where I point out that the Upgun puma gun is pretty much just as good as your average LV vs infantry? Compared to a hound for example, so calling in a strictly AT LV with limited AI is pretty false. Still not sold on the un-upgunned hotch, while the price could go up slightly I see no issues with the gun.

Me personally, I'd...

Both
- between 0.3 to 0.4 speed decrease, just to tip the edge to "faster" LV's.
- Slight fuel price increase

Upgun
-5 range for upgun

[TheWindCriesMary]

Is in your above comparison where I point out that the Upgun puma gun is pretty much just as good as your average LV vs infantry? Compared to a hound for example, so calling in a strictly AT LV with limited AI is pretty false.

I would strongly disagree that the upgun puma is as good as your average LV vs infantry. In fact I think it's not even remotely accurate.  A t17, Greyhound, Stag or non-upgun hotch will demolish it in that department without breaking a sweat. And they should -- otherwise there would be no tradeoff for getting the added benefit of being able to damage and pen tanks reasonably well with the upgun puma.

You take an upgun- puma and I'll take a normal hotch, or a stag or a greyhound and we can both fight 10 vanilla rifles or volks with them. I'll bet you I'll kill those rifles faster every single time. The UpGun puma is not on par in its AI abillity vs them. It is decent (far better than a marder, stuart, FF etc.) but by no means on the same level.

Both
- between 0.3 to 0.4 speed decrease, just to tip the edge to "faster" LV's.
- Slight fuel price increase

I think these are more than fair and, best of all, small tweaks.

Upgun
-5 range for upgun

Alone or coupled with a small ROF decrease (as it does seem to fire silly fast atm) this would be a great start.

[XIIcorps]

I would strongly disagree that the upgun puma is as good as your average LV vs infantry. In fact I think it's not even remotely accurate.  A t17, Greyhound, Stag or non-upgun hotch will demolish it in that department without breaking a sweat. And they should -- otherwise there would be no tradeoff for getting the added benefit of being able to damage and pen tanks reasonably well with the upgun puma.

You take an upgun- puma and I'll take a normal hotch, or a stag or a greyhound and we can both fight 10 vanilla rifles or volks with them. I'll bet you I'll kill those rifles faster every single time. The UpGun puma is not on par in its AI abillity vs them. It is decent (far better than a marder, stuart, FF etc.) but by no means on the same level.


I think these are more than fair and, best of all, small tweaks.

Alone or coupled with a small ROF decrease (as it does seem to fire silly fast atm) this would be a great start.

I do beg the question, does the hotch and its derivities get balanced against 50mm puma, stuart and m8 or the Tetrarch family,  given the similarities between the two ?

[nikomas]

Wind, does the up-gun puma cost 120 fuel and is it thought of as underpriced and overpowered? The T17 is both and has been on the nerfway for long time so that's a very poor comparison. While not the best it does have a decent chance to hit infantry (50% mid range) and will 1-shot a rifleman (67.5 damage iirc). Please remember that the puma was given the AC's coaxial machinegun on top of this and that coax gun can actually do damage.

Probably better than a stug and far better than the stuart or upgun hotch for shooting inf iirc, but that's incidental. It should be able to fight rifles without bazookas as well as a hound would fight volks without fausts.

Pathing sucks thou and it has like zero doctrine buffs, making it meh lategame.