Gamechange proposal...

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[salan]

Looking at the way this game has changed with this patch, and the bonus's to vet, aswell as the list of top 20 vet units and companies, it might be in europe in ruins benifit to look at changing the function of RETREAT.

People are not losing infantry units, on any real loss basis.  Myself by normal survival over many games I have 14-15 vet 3 rifleman in my max company.  Once you reach this point you fear very little in the means of infantry fights, mostly just hidden goliaths .

Two options I forsee as improving this function of the game.

1: and probably most unlikely:  Remove retreat from infantry.

this would make it where you could walk them offmap, but you would have NO get out of town free card, aka tanks.  This would focus more on WINNING fights, rather then oh shit im saving my stuff from death.   Tactics would be needed, it would REMOVE blobbing effectively.  If you blob, mgs gain suppression bonus and your whole force is instantly threatened with death.  Flanking, omg!


The problem about this will be tanks and supression will be much much stronger if it was changed.
People will resist losses until it is common, the current version is almost like playing todays MMO's, you lose so little real units!


1a:  Vet 2 units get a retreat at normal walking speed, with no buffs.  Vet 3 units lose retreat completely.  <meaning people can GAIN vet to 2 easily enough, but harder to maintain it>

2: The other option I would propose would be to slow down the retreat speed, and remove their protection.  Retreat pathing is bad sometimes, and your troops are more likely to be lost due to this, so in a way, option 1 is a better proposal, but it is less hardcore for the bleeding hearts.


The reason I am proposing this is to help shift the game more into a tactical setting, give it more of a BUFF from Vcoh, and allow for recycling of vetrency and troop use.   Looking at the vet leaderboard is disheartening for even those ON the leaderboard, units NEED to die more.


THank you

[SomeBloke]

I agree entirely.

[WHITEDONGHATESALLIES]

no

[DasNoob]

I completely agree with Salan's post, and I would like to play test it in the mod for a while.  It could be as ground breaking as the off map retreat that the devs came up with and no one liked.


Let's test it!

[snipes]

mabye just raise the vetrency lvls to higher xp, and also look at the games uve played

[salan]

triage, repairbunkers and medkits would be much more staple in a version with no retreat and tanks not having sideskirts till vet 3...  improvements everywhere!

[scrapking]

I disagree, strongly, because I don't want to encourage fights to the death.  Also it will make the game slower if you have to manually walk a unit to mapedge to retreat it, as well as punishing players, pop-wise, for not fighting to the death (and therefore bringing fresh reinforcements on that much faster).  The current retreat system works fine*.  The Unit Ladder works fine**, there is no monopoly on it that is not either weakened by not using the unit (thus no longer gaining xp), or continuing to risk it and its huge-ass ladder bullsye.

* - I would like to see retreating units lose all visibility, they shouldn't act as ad hoc spotters.

** - I would like to see real xp gained, prior to doctrine choices which buff xp gain are applied.

[salan]

I disagree, strongly, because I don't want to encourage fights to the death.  Also it will make the game slower if you have to manually walk a unit to mapedge to retreat it, as well as punishing players, pop-wise, for not fighting to the death (and therefore bringing fresh reinforcements on that much faster).  The current retreat system works fine*.  The Unit Ladder works fine**, there is no monopoly on it that is not either weakened by not using the unit (thus no longer gaining xp), or continuing to risk it and its huge-ass ladder bullsye.

* - I would like to see retreating units lose all visibility, they shouldn't act as ad hoc spotters.

** - I would like to see real xp gained, prior to doctrine choices which buff xp gain are applied.

completely dissagree with you.

the unit ladder does not work fine when i have 15 vet 3 riflemen in a company and I run almost no REAL risk of losing them except by underhanded hidden techniques.

base of the argument is, units need to die, and in order to do that, they need to lose their get away free card.


of course removing it will probably slow games down more, people won't charge as much and force the other person to commit HIS forces instead.

I don't know if I agree or dissagree on the punishment part, I understand your point, but I don't agree with your way of wording it nor the actualness of it.  Time between the front and the back isn't a punishment now when you retreat them, or repair a tank, it wouldn't be any different if they walked off at normal speed.


the ** comment really only effects 1 doctrine tree.  The ones that give vet 1 for cp cost, is like 6 xp and ignorable.

[ADOLFPWNZOR1000]

Let's test it!

It would also really buff triage centers!  And med kits!  Think about it, I enter abbyville only to get my ass handed to me by evilnrg and so i need to retreat... so i walk/run my guys out of the town behind the hedgerow for cover and load them into the halftrack that was waiting there and drive them down to the spawn and off map them.  then I on map some new grens and drive them up to the edge of town again.... this style of game play would be epic!

[salan]

fireup would be much more important on teh allied side, the rangers are already nerfed a lot, but would probably see one hit the airborn aswell.

[Thtb-Ally]

Hell no:


-Newb Bashing
-Vet lose / spawn camping / hunting
-Stallemate big time
-Hell no
-Goliaths xD

[salan]

Hell no:


-Newb Bashing
-Vet lose / spawn camping / hunting
-Stallemate big time
-Hell no
-Goliaths xD

noobs could kill the vetren players with a simple mg trap, it would actually balance that a hell of a lot.

VET LOSS, is the whole idea thtb, it needs to happen more.

are we playing a war game here, or a current day MMO? lets pick flowers and be friends..

[ADOLFPWNZOR1000]

I agree, the focus needs to shift from vetting up to winning matches more.  And once the war map comes into play hopefully this will help the shift.

Until then, vet needs to die more often.  Maybe instead of removing retreat, we remove all of the bonuses except speed... or vise versa.  But again, units need to die to complete the cycle of life... and people need to use more tactics with their infantry.  It would be an immediate and unforgivable blob cleanser. 

[ThetaCommander]

Hell no:


-Newb Bashing
-Vet lose / spawn camping / hunting
-Stallemate big time
-Hell no
-Goliaths xD

noobs could kill the vetren players with a simple mg trap, it would actually balance that a hell of a lot.

VET LOSS, is the whole idea thtb, it needs to happen more.

are we playing a war game here, or a current day MMO? lets pick flowers and be friends..

/agreed

Although, I can already see my Vet Riflemen dying already 

[Thtb-Ally]

Îs adolf day of wars smurf?

[scrapking]

I disagree, strongly, because I don't want to encourage fights to the death.  Also it will make the game slower if you have to manually walk a unit to mapedge to retreat it, as well as punishing players, pop-wise, for not fighting to the death (and therefore bringing fresh reinforcements on that much faster).  The current retreat system works fine*.  The Unit Ladder works fine**, there is no monopoly on it that is not either weakened by not using the unit (thus no longer gaining xp), or continuing to risk it and its huge-ass ladder bullsye.

* - I would like to see retreating units lose all visibility, they shouldn't act as ad hoc spotters.

** - I would like to see real xp gained, prior to doctrine choices which buff xp gain are applied.

completely dissagree with you.

the unit ladder does not work fine when i have 15 vet 3 riflemen in a company and I run almost no REAL risk of losing them except by underhanded hidden techniques.

base of the argument is, units need to die, and in order to do that, they need to lose their get away free card.


of course removing it will probably slow games down more, people won't charge as much and force the other person to commit HIS forces instead.

I don't know if I agree or dissagree on the punishment part, I understand your point, but I don't agree with your way of wording it nor the actualness of it.  Time between the front and the back isn't a punishment now when you retreat them, or repair a tank, it wouldn't be any different if they walked off at normal speed.

Of course it would be different!  First in terms of time until the pop is relieved, and secondly in terms of micro necessary.

I disagree with your belief that your 15 vet 3 rifleman have "almost no real risk" of being lost.  I have lost plenty, and killed plenty of leaderboard infantry,  (or near leaderboard infantry) without the use of demo charges, goliaths, on or off-map arty. 

The current battlefield is plenty lethal for my liking, both in terms if giving and taking.  You want it more lethal, I can respect the desire, but I'll fight tooth and nail against it.  I see no rational reason to change the current retreat system other than your (and perhaps others) desire for a more lethal battlefield, or perhaps resentment of players camping on the leaderboard.  The former I just don't agree with, and the latter I find ridiculous.

[DasNoob]

It would make vet more rare and exceptional, and maybe we could go back to the EIR vet instead of the crapy crapy 1.20 to health.

[DasNoob]

I disagree, strongly, because I don't want to encourage fights to the death.  Also it will make the game slower if you have to manually walk a unit to mapedge to retreat it, as well as punishing players, pop-wise, for not fighting to the death (and therefore bringing fresh reinforcements on that much faster).  The current retreat system works fine*.  The Unit Ladder works fine**, there is no monopoly on it that is not either weakened by not using the unit (thus no longer gaining xp), or continuing to risk it and its huge-ass ladder bullsye.

* - I would like to see retreating units lose all visibility, they shouldn't act as ad hoc spotters.

** - I would like to see real xp gained, prior to doctrine choices which buff xp gain are applied.

completely dissagree with you.

the unit ladder does not work fine when i have 15 vet 3 riflemen in a company and I run almost no REAL risk of losing them except by underhanded hidden techniques.

base of the argument is, units need to die, and in order to do that, they need to lose their get away free card.


of course removing it will probably slow games down more, people won't charge as much and force the other person to commit HIS forces instead.

I don't know if I agree or dissagree on the punishment part, I understand your point, but I don't agree with your way of wording it nor the actualness of it.  Time between the front and the back isn't a punishment now when you retreat them, or repair a tank, it wouldn't be any different if they walked off at normal speed.

Of course it would be different!  First in terms of time until the pop is relieved, and secondly in terms of micro necessary.

I disagree with your belief that your 15 vet 3 rifleman have "almost no real risk" of being lost.  I have lost plenty, and killed plenty of leaderboard infantry,  (or near leaderboard infantry) without the use of demo charges, goliaths, on or off-map arty. 

The current battlefield is plenty lethal for my liking, both in terms if giving and taking.  You want it more lethal, I can respect the desire, but I'll fight tooth and nail against it.  I see no rational reason to change the current retreat system other than your (and perhaps others) desire for a more lethal battlefield, or perhaps resentment of players camping on the leaderboard.  The former I just don't agree with, and the latter I find ridiculous.

It is completely not about the leaderboard.  It is completely about changing the focus and feel of EIR.  And those items you listed are indeed the only real way to kill vet.  Any quality player can hit the retreat button and laugh all the way off map.  Unless there are road campers 

[gungun]

EiR should have alot more strategic feel as close combat had , not spam spam

[salan]

Dasnoob there are other ways, BUT they are all very limited.  Offboard artillery, howitzer, democharge, goliath, offboard strafing run, bombing run, firestorm, rocket artillery and officer barrage, v1.

most of them give indications to be allowed to dodge, and the buff to retreat will usually see units get out.

Howitzers first shot IF it hits where its suppose to, goliaths, demo charges, and v1s are the only real way to completely depleat a unit without prior visual warning of potential of loss.