Gamechange proposal...

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[GammaCommander]

I say keep retreat but take off some of the defensive modifiers. It shouldn't be completely taken out though. This would lead to things like units being pinned for ages.

[Nevyen]

Its a suggestion based on salans idea, nothing more. perosnally im happy with this system but discussion dons't hurt.

[Kolath]

I like the idea of starting with a reduction of speed and defensive modifiers.  Could be good to try it out.  There are few things more annoying than catching a vet3 squad with MG/KCH/MP40s/Croc/etc. and having one man miraculously escape because he was able to retreat through a bunch of other units.  I agree there should be more consequences to getting your blob caught.

So I think a good starting point would be to test out the effects of keeping retreat and its suppression-breaking ability, but reducing the speed and defense modifiers.

[Bonte]

to me the retreat function is not good enough..i lose tons of squads and half the time my units retreat the wron way into enemy units to be mowed down

[AlcapwneD]

1a option works imo, this will probably be more noobfriendly rather than noobstomping with vet 3's. Or you can agree with my option, Nerf everything to vet2 and increase vet3 or have no vet 3 at all and make vet 2 the max. =)

[DasNoob]

OR you could actually buff artillery again so that people actually have a chance to lose infantry to it instead of being crybabies about artillery killing full squads.

I agree with this... boo hoo i lost a squad.  Acts of God need to be swift and more numerous than they currently are.  Drop time on off map should be more swift, but fewer in numbers so each one counts always!

[salan]

OR you could actually buff artillery again so that people actually have a chance to lose infantry to it instead of being crybabies about artillery killing full squads.

I agree with this... boo hoo i lost a squad.  Acts of God need to be swift and more numerous than they currently are.  Drop time on off map should be more swift, but fewer in numbers so each one counts always!

if the offmaps were all changed to the same time frame, ug..   would need to even out their uses though

[DasNoob]

I agree with salan.

And scapking, the unit leader board only changes marginally, and most of those changes are units in, say, 4th overtaking the one in 3rd, you hardly see a unit wiped off the board.

also it would only slow down game play if some of the settings stay the same (MCP forcing rushes - lots of pressure on the players), and if players don't adjust - last page some one talked about running their weakened units into a HT then dropping them off in the spawn and picking up new units, if it only does one thing it could give a use to the unupgraded HT .

Anyway, there is not a whole lot of point arguing over something without testing it, it could work well your it could crash and burn.

so if possible i say run a trial.

You are only proving my point that pandering to people's ego's (or others who cry like women for changes to make xp deteriorate) around the leaderboard is pointless.  And by pointless, I mean stupid.

But the funny thing is, and you are a good example of it, vet really should not mean so much.  I remember one match were you got 105ed and you lost one whole vet 3 unit and you "cried like a woman" as you put it, for so long in vent and really pushed for an arty nerf simply because you didn't think it was ok for someone to be able to alpha your unit.  So... it works both ways.

This is not meant to attack you personally, but since you are making strong accusations I thought I would point the finger a little in your direction.

Another example is when ever AmPm or Skunker lose a vet unit and want to leave the game, or they make me go hard of hearing because they are yelling at me in vent.

Now if vet didn't matter so much, we would see better matches IMO.

[salan]

I agree with salan.

And scapking, the unit leader board only changes marginally, and most of those changes are units in, say, 4th overtaking the one in 3rd, you hardly see a unit wiped off the board.

also it would only slow down game play if some of the settings stay the same (MCP forcing rushes - lots of pressure on the players), and if players don't adjust - last page some one talked about running their weakened units into a HT then dropping them off in the spawn and picking up new units, if it only does one thing it could give a use to the unupgraded HT .

Anyway, there is not a whole lot of point arguing over something without testing it, it could work well your it could crash and burn.

so if possible i say run a trial.

You are only proving my point that pandering to people's ego's (or others who cry like women for changes to make xp deteriorate) around the leaderboard is pointless.  And by pointless, I mean stupid.

But the funny thing is, and you are a good example of it, vet really should not mean so much.  I remember one match were you got 105ed and you lost one whole vet 3 unit and you "cried like a woman" as you put it, for so long in vent and really pushed for an arty nerf simply because you didn't think it was ok for someone to be able to alpha your unit.  So... it works both ways.

This is not meant to attack you personally, but since you are making strong accusations I thought I would point the finger a little in your direction.

Another example is when ever AmPm or Skunker lose a vet unit and want to leave the game, or they make me go hard of hearing because they are yelling at me in vent.

Now if vet didn't matter so much, we would see better matches IMO.

i would say most people not liking it USUALLY don't like it because it involves loss, not the actual change it could put into the game..  i dunno if scrap falls into that or not, nor does it matter to me

[anthony210]

I dunno, Id be willing to test it but I doubt this would be very good. I think youll have people still playing the same way you just wont see very many vet 3 infantry.

[|-|Cozmo|-|]

^^ think that is the effect he was going for.

[TodlichPanther]

OR you could actually buff artillery again so that people actually have a chance to lose infantry to it instead of being crybabies about artillery killing full squads.

Yes, rocket artillery should drop more shells faster + have 5 uses.
 

[Baine]

I like it the way it is now, it's noobfriendly, kind of.... take away the retreat button and you will see thousands of noob armies go to hell in less than 5 seconds.
I myself am a noob, and found it pretty exciting to have vet 2 units in my Company, ofcourse it would hurt to loose them, but you always have to face that.

If you don't like your vet, then start again, new, or whatever.

[Unkn0wn]

Another option is just adding a small delay to retreat although I can foresee that getting annoying very quick.
Manually retreating should be out of the question, this would slow down the game a lot in terms of having to micro a unit back to their spawn, waiting on it to get there and only then being able to call in a new squad. I completely dislike the dynamic that would create.

What would be worth a try however is just getting rid of the retreat buff, so units can actually die a lot faster when retreating. That alone would already have a big enough impact.

[Steinmarder]

One thing is for sure, removing the retreat ability would definatly increase the "quality" of the gameplay

forcing the ppl to micro the infantry more to achieve their goals would, in the long run, improve everyones gameplay.

I really like the idea and would say lets try it out!
Its still not 2.0, and if there is a possibility the mod can improve, lets just try it!


And i dont see the problem that it would take longer for infantry to leave / rejoin the fight, I just see halftracks come to great use again


A simple idea that could benefit the mod hugely, good work salan

[|-|Cozmo|-|]

what *could* be done is all buffs are taken away from retreat (speed and all), so all the button does is make the units beeline to wards the spawn point, but this will slow down game play right? wrong, because the retreat button could also give the units a pop modifier so it takes 0 pop while retreating.

another idea could be that you "mark" the units that are leaving the field, and they then take up no pop but cannot shoot. so you can get them back to the spawn the safest way.

*side idea* what about converging squads? you select the squads you wish to merge press a UI button and hey presto (well of course i have thought of a way to do it, which i shall test out once i have finished it but it goes like this - 

first check: are they the same unit type i.e two gren squads?
if yes: is one of them at least 1 man down?
if yes: get exp/hp of donating squad,  divide exp/hp by number of men in squad (so we have exp per man).
then: Get how many men are missing from receiving squad. (e.g. 2 - donating squad will be full)
then: despawn both squads and spawn 2 new squads one full and one with 2 men left. then then: give the hp/exp of the receiving squad + the hp/exp of 2 of the donating squads to the full squad.

and give the remaining squad the hp and exp left over from the donating squad.

(it could be make so it will only work if both squads are missing at least one man, or that they both and to be be able to make a full squad or less. i.e. one rifle squad with 2 men and one with 4.)

[Wraith547]

I honestly do not like this idea.

First of all, it would slow gameplay down, and the fast and generally fluid attack and counter-attack is a huge draw for me. Everyone would have to be even more careful and HMGs would be the most important unit in the game.

Secondly, if people want to vet horde, then let them. I choose winning games over preserving my vet, others are more concerned with their unit leaderboard standings. I don't waste my units, I retreat if I think they are combat ineffective, but I don't pull them back the second I feel they are in danger.

I say let people play how they see fit, don't force an arbitrary change that would sap a good deal of fun out of the mod for many of its members.

[Unkn0wn]

Exactly wraith, I just love it when certain people insta-retreat their vet 3 Stormtroopers when there's a calliope barrage about to hit them just because they're so afraid of losing the entire squad. It's fairly easy to push off the vet units if the player on the other side is a major vet whore and in the end he might even end up losing games because he gets out-attritioned in no time. (Although axis have an advantage and generally field more units)

[salan]

in a game with newer players they were retreating their vet 1s almost instantly simply to maintain their vetrency.

the more people we play with, so long as vet is the only persistency, we will see this more and more.

[fldash]

Players will "retreat" veteran units to preserve them regardless of if the retreat function exists or doesn't exist, and regardless of whether it gives benefits or doesn't (the latter will simply determine how early they retreat them).

Players retreat units because they know losing the battle is LESS important that losing veterancy.  However, if players lost unit experience when losing the battle, they'd be more inclined to use their veteran units to the fullest, perhaps losing some in order to ensure victory and keep those that survived from losing any experience.

That is originally why we had harsh experience loss for units.  But you guys failed to see why it needed to exist so we lowered it to a point where it's rarely noticed.  Now you are trying to come up with an alternative solution when the solution we had was best.