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Author Topic: One thing that came to my mind again.  (Read 13944 times)
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Steinmarder Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 404


« on: April 25, 2008, 06:03:21 pm »

I found it quite funny while playing the single player mode of company of heroes and it just came to my mind again.

Also some ppl in EiR now and than named their company after this and I thought maybe I should clarify this:

The "Panzerlehrdivision" (which is descriped as a somewhat elite unit in vCoH SP as "Panzer Lehr") was actually a "Tank Learning Division".. it was a training unit.

The thing is, probably why the guys at Relic dug that up and implemented it into vCoH, is that Michael Wittmann (the most effective tank commander of WW2) had to get over to the nearby (15km) training camp on foot with his crew after his Tiger was shot unmobile in a town center by an AT gun (after he had annihilated 25 heavy british tanks by himself with his tiger and even took out the rest that attacked him there after he got immobilized) to return with 15 PzIVs from the "Panzerlehrdivision" to finally clear the area.

I guess they kinda confused it there as it is a well known story but they probably didnt have much translaters who really got the sense of it  Tongue

[Note to the pic: The guy on the far left is Wittmann. White stripes at the gun mark 10 destroyed vehicles/tanks/at guns, black stripes stand for 50 (as the gun was completely white after a while). He is only wearing a simple Iron Cross on his uniform like the rest of his crew but he had earned the Iron Cross with oak leaves and crossed swords. He died in france]

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Klagt nicht, kämpft!
AmPM Offline
Community Mapper
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Posts: 7978



« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2008, 06:10:40 pm »

Panzer Lehr was in fact an elite division, it was formed from the elite, soldiers that trained others or that were from demonstration units. One of the best armed and equipped Wermacht divisions.
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Steinmarder Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 404


« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2008, 06:43:37 pm »

Where do you have that information from AmPm?Huh Would really interest me to read your sources on that one...

Anyways:

Ill translate the battle report of the day I was reffering to, as its just a really impressive story:

At the 12th of June 1944, Wittmann was ordered to hold the left flank of the corps near Villers-Bocage, because british tank battalions who had broken through the german lines where expected to head south through that position.

No panzergrenadiere were available to reinforce this position.

Wittmann arived at the ordered time with 6 Tiger tanks. In the night of the 12./13. June the company "Wittmann" had to change their positions three times due to ongoing, heavy artillery fire.

In the early morning hours, they were deployed at point 213, northwest of Villers-Bocage, with 5 Tiger Tanks ready for duty. Around 8 o'clock AM, the fieldpost reported to SS-Obersturmbannführer Wittmann that a big convoy of tanks was approaching on the road from Caen to Villers-Bocage.

Wittmann, who was in cover with his tank 200m south of the road, identified a british tank battalion which was followed by an armored infantry battalion.

The situation demanded a quick response. Wittmann couldnt give any orders any more to his following tanks, who were stationed in the region, and rushed right inside the british column firing on the move without a moment of hesitation. He split the enemy convoy, destroying 4 Shermans on 80m. He drove in and along the column, firing on 10-30m distance.

After a short time he had destroyed 15 heavy tanks. Another 6 where hit and their crew forced to abandon the vehicles. The following battalion, mounted on halftracks, was nearly completely destroyed.

The 4 following (tiger) tanks of the company "Wittmann" took 230 soldiers as POW.

Further approaching ahead of his company, Wittmann entered Villers-Bocage where a heavy anti-tank gun shot his tiger immoblie in the center of the town. He anyways destroyed all enemy vehicles in range and split the enemy troops in the area.

Wittmann and his crew than abandoned the tank (for now) and moved on foot to the 15km away traning facility (panzer lehr division), reported to the operations officer, and imediatly returned with 15 PzIV attacking on Villers-Bocage. With his Volkswagen which had finally found back to him, he broke through enemy territory to the 1. company (1. SS Panzer Kompanie), stationed at the main road to Villers-Bocage.

After giving his report on the situation he commanded the 1. company against the remaining tanks and AT guns in the town of Villers-Bocage.


Due to his.. blablablabla.... he defended the whole front and destroyed the spearhead of the british attack (the 22nd armored battalion) who were allready deep behind our lines. The corps had no other reserves at this moment. Up to this day, Wittmann destroyed 138 enemy tanks and 132 AT guns.

[this was from the report for which he got the "crossed swords" added to his iron cross]
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CommanderNewbie Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1240


« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2008, 06:48:01 pm »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_Lehr

I know wikipedia isn't definitive, but the sources check out.  I suppose the question would be, where do you get your sources on Panzer Lehr, Steinmarder? Tongue

Seems that Panzer Lehr wasn't a 'learning', but a demonstration unit.


Regardless, impressive story.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 06:53:02 pm by CommanderNewbie » Logged

CommanderNewbie - Allied
Prydefalcn - Axis
AmPM Offline
Community Mapper
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Posts: 7978



« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2008, 06:52:49 pm »

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1324

lots of other reading you can do if you get some books.
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Steinmarder Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 404


« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 07:02:48 pm »

Well that stuff makes sence reading it in that form in a way too, but Im kinda confused why no german source I know is refering to it in the way you guys mention it...

Ill try to get some more original army reports on that. ("the winners write the history"  Wink )
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lompocus Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 290


« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 07:15:12 pm »

Well that stuff makes sence reading it in that form in a way too, but Im kinda confused why no german source I know is refering to it in the way you guys mention it...

Ill try to get some more original army reports on that. ("the winners write the history"  Wink )

did you even bother to check, or did you ignorant block head just censor everything in the thread for you?
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AmPM Offline
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Posts: 7978



« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 07:17:55 pm »

Steinmarder, even more telling is their unit rosters and OOB. If you look you will find they are completely mechanized as well as receiving a high proportion of Puma armored cars (very rare) and armor. It was an elite formation when it was formed, ready and equipped to fight the allies.
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Apophiss Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 76


« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 07:49:23 pm »

 You cant change his mind, hes one of "those" that refuse to actually hear both sides or read both sides of the story.
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Ucross Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 5732


« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 08:30:38 pm »

Easy there Lompocus and Apophiss.  You guys are treating him like he won't agree slavery is wrong.  Lighten up.

Geez =P
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lompocus Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 290


« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 08:39:28 pm »

Easy there Lompocus and Apophiss.  You guys are treating him like he won't agree slavery is wrong.  Lighten up.

Geez =P

Smiley consider us both on the "Warning: Never, ever, ever turn these guys into mods, even in the event of an emergency, even if emergency mod powers need to be administered immediately else the world explodes!" list.
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Dr.Nick2 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 280


« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2008, 08:41:25 pm »

So how exactly did Whitman die? All I know is his tank got shot in the rear by a British tank. I don't know much else than that, I shall go do a search now.
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lompocus Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 290


« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2008, 10:28:11 pm »

So how exactly did Whitman die? All I know is his tank got shot in the rear by a British tank. I don't know much else than that, I shall go do a search now.

That usually causes a great deal of havoc on the crew inside the target tank, usually resulting in death Tongue.

I.E. anti-tank mines, besides blowing the tank up from the bottom, are usually able to kill the tank crew by the intense vibrations alone. Kinetic rounds punch a whole into the tank with such pressure so as to result in another heinous death for the tank crew.

It must suck to be a tanker. If you do die, you have a bunch of really, really bad ways to go.
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AmPM Offline
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Posts: 7978



« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2008, 10:36:26 pm »

The theories on Wittman's death are many and varied. Usually its attributed to a Firefly from some British Armor unit, forget the name of it. Other sources think it was either a P-47 or Hurricane.

The most accepted is the Firefly theory.
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stumpster Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 2197


« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2008, 12:24:35 am »

The most accepted is the Firefly theory.

Overpowered.  Nerfplzkthx.
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Quote
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Dr.Nick Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 271


« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2008, 01:05:52 am »

Quote
That usually causes a great deal of havoc on the crew inside the target tank, usually resulting in death .

I.E. anti-tank mines, besides blowing the tank up from the bottom, are usually able to kill the tank crew by the intense vibrations alone. Kinetic rounds punch a whole into the tank with such pressure so as to result in another heinous death for the tank crew.

It must suck to be a tanker. If you do die, you have a bunch of really, really bad ways to go.

Yes I know that and all but Tiger tanks often took rear shots and simply bounced them off so I was thinking it must have been a Firefly to penetrate.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 04:35:12 pm by Dr.Nick » Logged

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lompocus Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 290


« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2008, 01:19:45 pm »

Quote
That usually causes a great deal of havoc on the crew inside the target tank, usually resulting in death .

I.E. anti-tank mines, besides blowing the tank up from the bottom, are usually able to kill the tank crew by the intense vibrations alone. Kinetic rounds punch a whole into the tank with such pressure so as to result in another heinous death for the tank crew.

It must suck to be a tanker. If you do die, you have a bunch of really, really bad ways to go.

Yes I know that and all but Tiger tanks often took rear shots and simply bounched them off so I was thinking it must have been a Firefly to penetrate.

hrm....

*Wants Firefly @ 10 fuel 100 mp in EiR 2.0!!!*
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Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
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Posts: 18379


« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2008, 04:01:07 pm »

Footage of the wreck taken in 1945 by a french farmer, a year after the actual event. (Hey at least those french did something Tongue)

Either way, doesn't look like he could've made it out alive Tongue.
Poor guy.

Tunrs out he has a gravestone in La Cambe. I visited the La Cambe cemetary 2 years ago, didn't know back then...
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 04:07:07 pm by Unkn0wn » Logged
Bonte Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1234


« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2008, 04:18:07 pm »

could tank fire of blasted a tiger turret right off the tank?...it had to have been arty or something..or am i wrong?
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I'm too candid to hide something like that. Smiley
Candid - frank; outspoken; open and sincere: a candid critic

You must really think im an idoit.
UnLimiTeD2 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 131


« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2008, 04:29:02 pm »

Imagine it hit's the munition storage.
Just the way reactive armor works, just inside the tank.
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