Veterncy Experience should be a starting resource

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[Unkn0wn]

If I and a good teammate started brand new companies, would could beat high vet players with t4 abilities as long as they are not as good as we are.

You're acknowledging that equally skilled teams will have no fair match if one team has a higher amount of CPs/RBS and especially veterancy. That's not right, now is it? Imagine a sports team getting a 1 - 0 advantage just because they've had more victories.

Anyway, arranged teams will fix this by giving less vet reward when fighting less skilled teams (and more when fighting better teams), if it ever comes.

[AmPmAllied]

No, imagine 2 sports teams, they are all the same clones. 1 teams clones play more, work harder to learn the game, and practice more. The other teams sit around eating donuts and watch TV. Which one should win?

Skill can be learned, some are just to lazy to practice. Companies get stronger through playing, even if you lose the game, you can get stronger and faster and harder. All of our units start the same, changed only through how much effort you put into getting better and playing well.

[DBSights2]

Personally, I agree and disagree with both of you, in differing amounts.  

Vet should be significant: else there is no attachment to units and virtually no persistence.
Vet should be awesome: No one wants to see +4% bumfuck.  Levels should each be interesting and unique, same effect as getting to level 20,30, etc. in WoW.  You want a unit to survive b/c u imagine what awesome abilities it will get next vet level.
Vet should be easy to get: else noobs will feel disenfranchised and not want to play the mod.  
Vet should be scaled: diminishing returns, the more work you put in, the less incremental value you get from it.  Basically, initially there is great returns from vet, but more and more vet gives less and less and is much harder to get.
Vet should be easy to lose: The sense of risk will enhance gameplay, esp. since vet is not impossible to gain back to a decent level.

More could be said, but I have to play a game now.  The jist of the hypothetical paragraph I was going to type would be:
devs abandoned us
we shouldn't just wait around
fix it ourselves!

[salan]

No, imagine 2 sports teams, they are all the same clones. 1 teams clones play more, work harder to learn the game, and practice more. The other teams sit around eating donuts and watch TV. Which one should win?

is that not the same as learning the curve of when to call what on and where to have it? rather then the more active team gaining 3 extra attackers and a second goalie over the first team because they practiced more?

a well learned chess player still has the same pieces to fight the novice chess player with, simply because he knows the game he gains the advantage, not because he knows the game and got extra pieces, as we said earlier.

when looking at competition, vet ADDS to what you have, as does cp/rb ... hence my original point that its to bad that vet = everything (or close to) atm, and has since this started.

[Bodybag2224-Armor]

TBH vet in this game is an excuse people will fall back on for why they lost a game. I always wanted vet to be insignificant but it basically is, there are only a few units that become "game changing" with vet. And hard counters still>vet.

[Unkn0wn]

vCOH has pros & noobs too, yet people start off on equal ground.
If I play an equally skilled player in EIR, it's usually not who is the most skilled at the actual game (micro, knowledge, teamwork, whatever) but the one who has played the most and racked the most advantages from his skill.

TBH vet in this game is an excuse people will fall back on for why they lost a game. I always wanted vet to be insignificant but it basically is, there are only a few units that become "game changing" with vet.

Disagree, vet can have a major impact on the game, it's just not always as obvious because a lot of the bonusses are not directly visible.

[novox6]

No, imagine 2 sports teams, they are all the same clones. 1 teams clones play more, work harder to learn the game, and practice more. The other teams sit around eating donuts and watch TV. Which one should win?

Skill can be learned, some are just to lazy to practice. Companies get stronger through playing, even if you lose the game, you can get stronger and faster and harder. All of our units start the same, changed only through how much effort you put into getting better and playing well.

you dont understand. I liked that Chess comparisson. A skillfull player will always beat a random guy off the street. Right? Thats how it is. If you played someone that just joined right now, you would win. Correct? Now if you had a Vanilla company and you played the new guy, you would win right? yeah.

With the chess comparisson. Your saying that Someone that played for a long time, should have skill PLUS initial bonus's.

So the new guy plays the pro in chess, but the pro gets +1 on all his pawn, meaning the opponent needs to use 2 pawns to beat 1. Is that logic for you? Cause seriously, there is problems with that. We are trying to (i believe) promote strategic play. How are we doing that when people can spam vet 3 KCH and get around nearly anything. Sure they couldve worked hard for it... OR they couldve bashed some noobs and got the vet 3 in a matter of seconds. Seriously. Does that take hard work? Answer honestly. I would understand if you were playing MountainMan and pros to get your vet 3. Then yeah, the bonus's are reasonable. But your playing bloody noobs. How hard is it to win?

If there was an even playing level between everyone in the community, then vet would work as it is. But people are just vetting their shit up against noobs. I have RARELY seen a game where pros are playing pros. In all honesty.

This game requires knowledge and skill. By using the vet system we have currently. We are halfing the affectivness of skill. Who needs to flank that hmg? when i can run up to it with 3 vet 3 grens and just remove it in seconds?

Who needs to worry about bars when my vet 3 KCH cant get suppressed?

Who needs to worry about anything when vet has a reasonable counter for it all.

[AmPmAllied]

The only units I notice can change the game based on their vet are KCH and....umm....shoot, thats about it. I have never had a problem that cannot be solved by a well rounded force with the right tools.

Lots of vet grens? NP! Vet tanks? NP!

I worked my allied company up playing against people that were as good as myself, and who had better companies. Ok, so what? I played well, keep my units alive, and my infantry are now all vet 2. My tanks usually get to vet 2 before I decide they can die for the greater good. ATGs....well they don't live long on either side.

Vet doesn't counter anything, it makes your mistakes easier for you to correct. Want to rush my HMG with your vet 3 grens? Feel free, because right behind it is the supporting BAR squad and a squad with grenades. It quickly turns into a lot of dead vet 3 grens, and some very well armed riflemen.

People think vet will change your game, in reality it only decides close fights. 20% more HP on some grens means I need to hit them 20% more or less due to rifle crits. OH NOES!! Thats it, thats the fearsome vet right there. It does practically nothing because anything with that high of vet runs off when its down to 2 men. Riflemen need to be shot at 25% more to remove them at vet 1! Not even vet 3.

The vet is nicely balanced once you learn to play. And really determines very little. The vet 1 bonuses are by far the best though.

[novox6]

The only units I notice can change the game based on their vet are KCH and....umm....shoot, thats about it. I have never had a problem that cannot be solved by a well rounded force with the right tools.

Lots of vet grens? NP! Vet tanks? NP!

I worked my allied company up playing against people that were as good as myself, and who had better companies. Ok, so what? I played well, keep my units alive, and my infantry are now all vet 2. My tanks usually get to vet 2 before I decide they can die for the greater good. ATGs....well they don't live long on either side.

vet 3 Stormtroopers are also a bitch with their huge HP bonus. They can wipe out more then their worth before u can get a reasonable counter.
vet 3 Rangers and vet 3 Airborne are also a bitch. They are a TRUE hastle to get off and even with reasonable counters, you will end up loosing more then their worth trying to remove them. And not to mention Airborne nearly cant die when retreating.

General infantry isn't that bad, but Blitzkreig vet 2 grens or volks are also stupid. They can run up to a .30 cal and just stand infront of the house.

In other words. Elite infantry are problematic with vet.
General Infantry is just annoying but even then, the affect shouldn't be as great as it currently is.


I personally play a Tenacious Faith company so i know the affects of vet. They arn't that great, until i pull out vet 3 KCH or my vet 2 gren blob runs up to a .30 cal.

Edit : AmPm. If you believe vet doesn't play that great of a role in the game. Whats the harm in reducing it? Honestly. If your good, ur going to win. There's no doubt.

[Bodybag2224-Armor]

So the solution would be to fix the vet? right?

[AmPmAllied]

Vet 3 Rangers are easy, vet 3 airborne are only a pain if you use tanks that are no good at killing them...stormies I laugh at, then again I always picket my BAR squad with a couple other rifles...stormies pop out, stormies suppressed, pinned, grenades.....dead stormies, couple dead rifles, bring in more rifles.

The only change I would make to vet, is removing retreat buffs other than the speed. That would fix almost everything.

[novox6]

Vet 3 Rangers are easy, vet 3 airborne are only a pain if you use tanks that are no good at killing them...stormies I laugh at, then again I always picket my BAR squad with a couple other rifles...stormies pop out, stormies suppressed, pinned, grenades.....dead stormies, couple dead rifles, bring in more rifles.

I was told vet 3 airborne can take out a single KCH squad, and with fireup, they are basicly unsupressable for a short amount of time.
Vet 3 rangers with thompsons are no doubt a pain. You can't argue with that.

I honestly think a retreat nerf would fix this all. Majority of times, Vet 3's think their godly and just rush in in blobs and when things get dirty they retreat through the whole army and dont die. Therefore survivability is easy. Make it harder to keep vet. Then there would be a reason for having high bonus's. Right now its far too easy.

[|-|Cozmo|-|]

you are saying "make it blabla" who exactly are you tell to "make it"?

[Eternal]

I agree with the chess scenario. Right know its like allowing the best guy to have 2 queens, just because he's better. Vet should only be a minor advantage, and as some guy said, not be buff, but more like ekstra abilities, making units more flexible and usefull at more task.

I would love to see that vet 3 for grens did almost nothing for their combat ability, but instead you could buy bundles for them, or something like that. A better player should be able to use the new upgrades more effienciently, thereby gaining a larger strategic advantage. Not just the ability to steamroll his opponent with vet that actually reduces the need for skill and micro.

I joined this mod a few weeks ago, and I must sya I cant wait for the war to end, as I think the few matches at start will be alot more fun, as I am very tired of being steamrolled by vet 3 AB's with that T4 ability that makes them gods for a minute (or some other vet 3 + T4 combo)

[novox6]

you are saying "make it blabla" who exactly are you tell to "make it"?

Whatever is the tiny percent chance someone that "might" or "will" be working on the dev team will read this.

Optimistic. Yes.  

[salan]

its just about time to have a good MOD discussion... ahh yes the good ol' days

[AmPmAllied]

Except that if vet gives you access to more upgrades, it directly increases your combat ability...

What infantry vet should have done in the first place, is not have things that change the total HP or damage of the infantry, but include more tactical things, like vet 1, 20% decrease in incoming accuracy while moving, 10% increase to the effects of cover, 10% more range, 10% more accurate etc.

[Warbirds2]

Personally I hope this war doesn't end.  I'm getting tired and annoyed that every time I finally get my T4, the war ends in a few days, and I don't have much of a chance to use it.

[Bodybag2224-Armor]

Vet 3 Rangers are easy, vet 3 airborne are only a pain if you use tanks that are no good at killing them...stormies I laugh at, then again I always picket my BAR squad with a couple other rifles...stormies pop out, stormies suppressed, pinned, grenades.....dead stormies, couple dead rifles, bring in more rifles.

I was told vet 3 airborne can take out a single KCH squad, and with fireup, they are basicly unsupressable for a short amount of time.
Vet 3 rangers with thompsons are no doubt a pain. You can't argue with that.

I honestly think a retreat nerf would fix this all. Majority of times, Vet 3's think their godly and just rush in in blobs and when things get dirty they retreat through the whole army and dont die. Therefore survivability is easy. Make it harder to keep vet. Then there would be a reason for having high bonus's. Right now its far too easy.

That would just cause more units to be babyed (babied or babyied idk how to spell it) and the game to become even more slow paced. And the chess scenario can not be compared because COH is different from chess and only share some aspects. It is more like I win all these awards from years of playing. A new person comes wins 1 game and gets all of the same awards I get. Vet is only sometimes game breaking, but people seem to think that vet=wins, but it doesn't all the time, if you have skill you will be able to beat vetted units.

[UnLimiTeD]

Retreat buffs won't change the problems, the pros know when to retreat, the noobs suffer.
That is the main Problem we have.
And AmPm:
Yes, I am actually able to partake in 2 discussions at once, in one post, even in a single sentence.
Surprising, isn't it.
+ My arguments were perfectly valid and have not yet been disprooven by you.
A comparison:

A fresh Airborne player with maybe 30 Cps and Rbs skilled drops 2 AB squads, with 1 rr, 1 gren, 1 satchel near the battlefield, in yellow cover.
They manage to get some hits on a P4 that is backed up to a repairbunker und kill a volkssquad before retreating.
One squad dies to KCH.

2. Situation.
An advanced AB player drops 2 vet3 RaidAssault Airborne with 2 RRs and grens in the middle of the road, oneshots the P4 front-on, slaughters a mortar, an HMG, a volkssquads and drives the KCH off, then retreat with minimal casualties after wireing the road and overtaking the HMG that will now cover the area.

While a slightly skilled axis player might prevent that from happening, or atleast bring a puma, a relatively fresh player will run to the boards and scream VET OP!
And he is partially right.


I will now cease posting here until tomorrow to see where the discussion is heading.

And to your last post, AmPm:
I can actually accept your last statement, an interesting idea that might work out and more importand, admiting it's worth to change.