Secrets Revealed 4 - Availability

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[salan]

EIR:R Secrets Revealed - 4: Availability

Availability is something we have all wanted in some form or another since it was removed almost a year ago. What we all learned through this time is that balance based only on pricing is not sufficient enough to stop unit-spamming while allowing units a balanced cost. So now we introduce to you, the Prestige Availability System!


EIR:R takes Availability a new direction from the form you saw earlier in Europe in Ruins history. This is a soft capping system. So long as you have the resources needed to buy the unit, you can buy the unit. There are a few terms you will need to know, and understand how they work.


This conversation assumes your force is called a battalion


First you have units that are In Reserve. The in reserve number equates to the number of units you have readily on hand at any given time, these do not cost you prestige to purchase. When you purchase a unit past the In Reserve quota, that unit will become In Supply.


Secondly you have units that are In Supply. The in supply number equates to what your division would have in their reserve pool to be drawn on by battalion commanders. There would be fewer units, and it would take longer and be harder to get units from this source, as others are also requesting the same supplies. These troops will cost you an amount of prestige based on the rarity of the unit requested.  When you purchase a unit past the In Supply quota that unit will become Out of Supply.


Thirdly you have units that are Oversupplied. The over supply numbers equates to your ability to beg, borrow and steal from any source you can to get what you need. There is a premium cost involved here and the prestige needed to get these units is doubled from the in supply Prestige Cost. A lot of the heavier vehicles will be out of supply quickly compared to basic infantry types, recreating the feeling that some units are rare in Europe in Ruins and will likely only be seen once in a battle per player.


These numbers and costs do not change as you purchase units.
If you had 2 in reserve, 2 in supply and a cost of 1 pp, this will always be the case even if you lose one in battle. The soft cap is there to make it where you have a dynamic choice in creating your company from the moment you create it to the end of the war.

an example of Availability:

<name, InReserve, InSupply, PP cost>
Jeep, 4, 2, 1


The first 4 purchases of a jeep are InReserve and do not cost any Prestige.  The next two, 5 + 6, are InSupply and will cost you 1 pp each, any further purchases of the jeep are considered Oversupplied and will cost double the PP cost, being 2 for the jeep.  If you play a game, and all your jeeps survive the battle, you will not be recharged for their existence.  If you had bought 7 jeeps and lost 3, you would need to reinvest in the PP cost again to get back into the Oversupplied amount.

Things to note:


-All units fall under the soft cap.

-The availability numbers are subject to change as balance decisions are made and needed.

-Some units will cost pp for the first purchase, ie: heavy tanks / mobile artillery.

-Some unit upgrades were separated into separate units, and have their own availability.

-ALL Prestige spent is REFUNDABLE if you sell the item back, if it DIES its price is permanent.

-Maintaining your unit will not cost you more PP, re-buying your unit when it dies will if you are above the in reserve state.

Free spamming of units is coming to an end. You can spend your PP to go straight down your doctrine tree and be more restricted through availability, or you can attempt to have a more customized force with the potential re-occurring cost of PP's while slowly gaining points towards doctrine choices.

Hopefully you can think of this with an open mind.

[salan]

Spam, you are now a lunch meat again!

[AmPmTLS]

Kinda annoying that you need PP to get the ability to use a unit, then pay more PP just to use one of them....

On the other hand, during the early to mid war period everyones companies should be nicely similar, allowing you to plan your counters more.

It will for sure stop theme companies though, no more Armor Companies without massive PP spent to get extras, not likely to see anything with 2-3 heavy tanks (which has never really been overpowering....buy a couple ATGs and call it a day).

I'm interested to see how PP plays out, so far its looking like investing in Doctrines followed by Availability far outwieghs paying for vet.

[AmPmTLS]

Apparently I cannot edit for spelling...or anything else....

Why not just include the 1 availability in the Doctrine, and add the price to it. At least that way new players won't get it, and then go wondering why they can't use it. Seems easier that way on everyone.

[SaintPauli]

This sounds VERY VERY promising! (now you just need to get the numbers right)

[Igawa]

This is good idea! It makes your units more valuable AND adds a little dash of realism to the equation. Calliopes, Priests, KTs, Tigers, Stukas, KCH,  and the like were really not that common at all, so losing them should be an expensive proposition.

However....if they're going to cost more than they do now then they better pull their weight in combat. (looks at KT)

Also, the cap on regular units....how high is it? I'm certain nobody will spend PP on getting more riflemen....but at the same time, are things like the 4 P4 company /sherman spam going the way of the dodo? Because from my experience, being able to do such things with tanks has been fine and not considered unbalanced (just the abilities they have). If getting 4 P4s would fit the company better than a Panther and 2 P4s, for instance, I'd like to be able to do it and not worry about PP.

Regular tanks don't have THAT huge an impact on the game dynamic, IMO (as in the way a KT or Priest might)

[Hydro]

50 Prestige Point for that, commandos and jaga will be rare units in EiR

[SaintPauli]

Hmm. I just realized that this does nothing to stop anybody from having an all airborne company. There needs to be a hard cap on the number of “out of supply” troops you can buy (either on the unit itself or on the number of “out of supply” troops in the company). 

What is the limit going to be on elite infantry like airborne, rangers, stormtroopers and commandos?   

[DasNoob]

Once you hit your In-supply number you start spending PP.  There is an out-of-supply number after that which you can still spend PP on, but the PP cost really out weighs the benefit.  Basically the PP cost scales higher to prevent this, but if someone is crazy enough I guess they could spend their whole life trying.

[AmPmTLS]

Because currently armies of all elite troops are a problem....or they aren't and it added variety.

[DasNoob]

Because currently armies of all elite troops are a problem....or they aren't and it added variety.

Lolz, This coming from the guy who 8 months ago was shouting for pre-made platoons with tags 

[salan]

What is the limit going to be on elite infantry like airborne, rangers, stormtroopers and commandos?   

the limit will be much lower then you currently have.  Airborne themselves are a assault troop and won't be wtfeverywhere anymore, unless you want to sink a considerable amount of PP into buying them. 

this said their doctrines will broaden their use more, but that is a discussion for later.

[salan]

Hmm. I just realized that this does nothing to stop anybody from having an all airborne company. There needs to be a hard cap on the number of “out of supply” troops you can buy (either on the unit itself or on the number of “out of supply” troops in the company). 

this is a soft cap system.  There will be no hard caps, but there is a doubling of cost as you go into the out of supply troops.

you will gain PP for each game you play, you will have doctrines to spend points on, amongst other things like advantages and veterancy.  There will seriously be no need for a hard cap, and if a unit is still overly spammed, the first line of balance is now availability, and not individual pricing.

adjusting amounts and cost of availability will have instant effects.

[AmPmTLS]

Never said pre-made platoons. I said add tags. That way you can build a company that suits what you want, but the units could be limited in availability to other companies.

Not everyone looks the same with 2-3 units to add flavor.

What differentiates companies now, people usually take the path of least resistance, so the best builds will be what you see.

So far the only response I have gotten from anyone of the EIRR Dev/fanbois is "it doesn't matter if its not balanced, that's how its going to be".

There is no balance to the system, spending 1 PP for an HMG is very different to spending 1 PP on a Calliope. For it to be balanced PP needs to be treated like any other resource, and you should gain equal benefits to spending 5 PP adding vet as you would spending it on new troops, resources, or Doctrine abilities.

The system isn't a bad idea, its just not implemented well.

[Unkn0wn]

How do you know when you haven't seen the availability lists yet?

[AmPmTLS]

adjusting amounts and cost of availability will have instant effects.

Yea, you buy up to the max for the most efficient units, then spend the rest on anything else. Thats the problem, its not balancing the cost of the unit, its not adding good choice to it. It makes you limited, but instead of making the unit less desirable or less efficient or other units more efficient, you just limit the number.

This ensures that people get as many of that unit as they can, and spend the rest other places.

[AmPmTLS]

Because when I asked EIRMod about it, he replied they were all 1 PP for more.

I made the suggestion of changing that to Salan a few days ago, so I hope it goes in. It would fix a lot of the issues with the system.

[salan]

while you have your opinion on the matter I assure you that through testing and different choices we made while deciding on this route we took everything into consideration.

We have even added in more survivability into almost all the troops, and look forward to doing so for the remaining few units that do not currently have it, in the future. This will simply to address the issue of spending a non refundable Prestige point and having the unit have a relative level of survivability.

[salan]

adjusting amounts and cost of availability will have instant effects.

Yea, you buy up to the max for the most efficient units, then spend the rest on anything else. Thats the problem, its not balancing the cost of the unit, its not adding good choice to it. It makes you limited, but instead of making the unit less desirable or less efficient or other units more efficient, you just limit the number.

This ensures that people get as many of that unit as they can, and spend the rest other places.

You do know that this is exactly what it is intended to do right?

BEFORE THIS: BUY ALL 1 UNIT.

AFTER THIS:  BUY 1 UNIT TILL IT COSTS PP, decide if you want to make that sacrifise, or DIVERSIFY.

working as intended? yes.

[salan]

you should also realize in the old availability you would not even have the functionality of purchasing past the out of supply limit, it simply wouldn't exist.

here you have a true dynamic availability.  You choose how far you go with what you are willing to pay.