Ostwind vs Stuart

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[Draken]

The Stuart and M8 both use the same 37mm gun, this wouldn't penetrate the 80mm thick frontal armour of a panzer IV.

Also the Ostwind has a 37mm automatic cannon, if the stuart can penetrate the Panzer IV, then the Ostwind should murder it.

Leave it as it is, its fine. Just make PIATs a little more accurate.

First "realism" arguments in this game completly miss the point.

But u forget about one thing the size of the gun isn't everything, dont forget that Ostwind is using anti aircraft shells, so it should do shit to stuart in real. Talking about realism arguments...

[Baine]

Yeah, and you're gonna set up a 17 pdr in the thick of battle with a 1 minute set up time?
Please, noone plays anything else but reinforcements gamemode.
Button costs 90 munitions, PIATS - 85 munitions. That's 175 munitions. For something that's way less effective than a shrek or a pak, it's a fuck-ton.
And you don't know how horrible the PIAT accuracy is. Missing marders at point blank while it's locked down and buttoned up...

See, PIATS penetrate alot, because they hit the top of the tank. Schreks cant do that. They miss alot in weird situations aswell. And sometimes they just bounce off.

[panzerjager1943]

EIRRMod stated that we are not making unit stat changes, except when it breaks EiR's style of gameplay.

[UnLimiTeD]

I've played ONE game of 'Reinforcements' in total, and dropped after 3 minutes.
Every other game was attack/defend.

Also, Ostwinds can kite Brenguys, they are not bad at it.

And stuarts are just like slow M8s, it's supposedly their niche to be slow, but tougher armored cars. Essentially, it is an armored car, light gun, not too strong, rather mobile.
Just a brit version of the m8 like the PE AC is sort of a fast, weak puma.

[VictorTarget]

Psh.  PIATs are great.  I don't know what you guys are talking about.

Oh, wait.  Yes I do.  Perhaps you're not using them well?  The PIAT sucks at long range, but can be used that way if you have forever to kill something, or have a dozen of them.  But at close range is where it rocks.  Which is where I'm left wondering why none of you use PIAT ambush.  If you're being chased by an Ostie, or expect one, why aren't you drawing him back to PIATs?  In something like this, it's an absolute must to have some PIATs waiting in ambush for axis tanks near a road or wall somewhere.  Don't underestimate the advantage of having an indirect fire weapon, either.  

As for my standard assist to it, mines....well, I'm rather annoyed I can't get them.  But I guess I'm stuck using Armor Reinforcements, then, aren't I?  I can do that.

[Skaevola]

If your so sure their gonna ostwind start then start with a cromwell or a churchill?

[NightRain]

Ehh guys...PIAT is a bloody pipe with a spring and Anti-Tank shell in it. How the hell people want to compare it to Shrecks? AYe its hand held AT...cheap one too (rly it is a pipe with a spring in it XD)

It fires over hedges and buildings thats why I think it is cool but it can't hit worth a darn to a moving target. Dream on with it boys. PIAT should be cheaper...but hey you get 2 of them instead of one shreck w00t...
Meh...Brits...I want mobile weapon teams for them x)

[acker]

The Stuart and M8 both use the same 37mm gun, this wouldn't penetrate the 80mm thick frontal armour of a panzer IV.

Also the Ostwind has a 37mm automatic cannon, if the stuart can penetrate the Panzer IV, then the Ostwind should murder it.

First off, there are many different models of the Panzer IV chassis. Each has a differing amount-distribution of armor.

In other words, it really depends. The frontal superstructure/hull has around 80mm of armor. However, the turret armor is only 25-37mm thick, with a mantlet protection of 25mm. This is easily penetrable by the 37mm gun mounted on the Stuart and the Greyhound. The sides and rear have even worse protection.

The Ostwind would have greater difficulty knocking out a Stuart, I believe. It would still be able to, though. Even HE/AA rounds would be able to screw up the tank.


But since when has realism ever been the objective of EIR? It really doesn't matter. I don't see a problem with the Ostwind/Stuart matchup, either...

Asking for button coordination would be...difficult. It requires a player to invest a lot of popcap, manpower, and munitions for 15 seconds or so in order to get a couple PIAT shots on target. If the PIAT doesn't screw up, or the enemy doesn't respond. More things have to go right for a PIAT team than a bazooka or panzerschrek team. I suppose cloak could be awesome if the Brits were defending, though.

[AmPM]

At this point in the war they are all p4 G-J

In other words, not going to get penetrated from the front by a 37mm.

In 1942 the Stuart was already obsolete on an open battlefield, in 1943-45 they were used as recon vehicles and outriders for tank columns.

If you want to argue realism, remove the PaK 38's, give me PaK 40's and 43's, and make tanks explode when they get penetrated.

The Stuart is not meant to kill armored vehicles, it kills light armor (HTs, armored cars, etc) and infantry. Thats what it does, get over it.

You want a light tank that does good vs armor, go Commando.

[Mgallun74]

At this point in the war they are all p4 G-J

In other words, not going to get penetrated from the front by a 37mm.

In 1942 the Stuart was already obsolete on an open battlefield, in 1943-45 they were used as recon vehicles and outriders for tank columns.

If you want to argue realism, remove the PaK 38's, give me PaK 40's and 43's, and make tanks explode when they get penetrated.

The Stuart is not meant to kill armored vehicles, it kills light armor (HTs, armored cars, etc) and infantry. Thats what it does, get over it.

You want a light tank that does good vs armor, go Commando.

front hull only.. sides and rear easy meat for the 37mm..   hell even the panthers side and rear where easily pentrated by 37mm..   heard many storys from grandfather who said they would drive the greyhounds around and sneak up behind Mark4s, panthers etc and take a pop shot in the butt, disable it and run off leaving them stranded.. that would be fun that have that little tread breaker tool the weakass 37mm that axis have lol.  i think the designers put it on the wrong vehicle.

[acker]

At this point in the war they are all p4 G-J

In other words, not going to get penetrated from the front by a 37mm.

In 1942 the Stuart was already obsolete on an open battlefield, in 1943-45 they were used as recon vehicles and outriders for tank columns.

The numbers I quoted were for an Ostwind from at least July of 1944. In other words, it is going to be penetrated by a 37mm gun. That isn't a bad thing, on the contrary; since the Ostwind is designed to take out aircraft, a marginal amount of armor is for the best in order to decrease the turret rotation time. And Ostwinds aren't exactly designed to fight against tanks of any type. It should also be noted that Panzer variants were likely to be mounted on dated Panzer chassis in order to free up production of the "more important" MBTs. So the actual armor for some Ostwinds should be less than the theoretical production figures (I used the production figures).


 I wouldn't call the Stuart obsolete in 1943-45, either. It was clearly not a match for the 1945 M24 Chaffee, but you would be hard-pressed to name an equivalent German light tank that was superior to the Stuart. Because, you know, the Stuart was a light tank, not a Tiger. Completely different purposes than a medium or heavy tank.

It's true that the M3 Stuart was intended for recon. But the stats are quite the contrary.

Strangely enough, in cavalry groups, only 3% of their total missions were actually reconnaissance. Defensive operations accounted for 33%, "blocking, screening, protecting flanks, maintaining contact between units, and filling gaps" accounted for 25%, and offensive operations constituted 10% of their actual missions. The last 29% was for acting as a mobile reserve/keeping communications.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/usarmy/cavalry.aspx

In short, Stuarts were seldom used in their theoretical role for some reason. They were more commonly used as a fast reserve for defense or exploitation.

As I stated before; I see no problem with the Stuart-Ostwind matchup in the game.

[Mgallun74]

ya.. and the marder.. anytime a stuart gets behind and marder and hits it 3 times from side and rear at close range that marder should be toast.. it has no armor, especially in the crew area..

37mm on the Stuart in reality is a pretty mean little gun, easily could penetrate Mark4s, STugs, Osts, Marders from sides and rear at decent range.

I have a things that bug me alot in this game..

1.  Panzershks can shoot at long range very accurately.. in reality you be lucky to hit anything over 60yards to 100 yards with it.. couldnt count how many times i would haver a sherman get outdueled by a schk squad at long range.

2.  The paper thin Side and rear armor of the axis tanks just not taking enough damage.. Stuart, Sherman getting behind or a side shot on a Stug, Mark4, Ost, Marder and even the HTs.. 2-3 shots and the guy is barely hurt.. ya ok, not sure if the guns on the allied tanks are just too weak or what but needs looking at..

3.  That Motar HT is nuts.. in can effectively can kill crews and squads in 1-2 shots..

in my month player here i have come to the reality that this game is tilted towards the german players, its a fact in my eyes due to some of the equipment the axis have is pretty elite compared to the rather vanilla allieds, i.e. cloaking itmes, even i middle of field, hand held AT guns shooting as far as tanks, paper thin armor items taking a good pounding etc..the americans are very bland except for a few very expensive things, the brits are designed to the the El Alamien army, sit and wait.. they need some movement items, infantry HMG, Motar and maybe a 6pdr.

all this is just my opinnion

Sorry, I don't want to get personal, but if you would have started with axis, you would complain in the other direction. Shreks vs shermans at long range? No chance. Airborne/Ranger fire up. etc

meh, i did.. i had a axis squad for a bit when i first started, went 8-2, figured it was too easy so switched over.

also, my next game i will save the replay.. show you a long range engagement i get with a shrek squad..   the grens will be in the open field, uncovered.. get mged from hull and turrent gunner and 75 hit in middle before they got of a schk, 1 schk hit and damn near 50 per health gone, while all that mg fire and 75 fire barely hurts them.. hmmm..

u axis guys have it easy, you get units with weak armor that perform better than heavier armed allied units.. right now you dont have to worry about any Air power, nor do you have to worry about the numbers advantage the allies had..   the game designers made the allied tanks and so on weak, but didnt really give them benefit of numbers.. pop cap of sherms and cost should be lower, so i can historical have 3 or so field on a time against 1 mark 4 or so on, right now i could bring 2, but at totally killing rest of my force..

[AmPmAllied]

Strangely enough, in cavalry groups, only 3% of their total missions were actually reconnaissance. Defensive operations accounted for 33%, "blocking, screening, protecting flanks, maintaining contact between units, and filling gaps" accounted for 25%, and offensive operations constituted 10% of their actual missions. The last 29% was for acting as a mobile reserve/keeping communications.

Defensive operations normally conducted by outriders? You mean units that you used to screen your force, and give you a much larger view of the area? Sorta like a recon role but keeping them close to home?

Oh, and Pz II Luchs is sex.

[kingterranes]

pleas state soruces :/

[acker]

Defensive operations normally conducted by outriders? You mean units that you used to screen your force, and give you a much larger view of the area? Sorta like a recon role but keeping them close to home?

Oh, and Pz II Luchs is sex.

Sorta correct, except not really. Defensive operations and offensive operations need no explanation, and are not related to what you imply.

"Blocking, screening, protecting flanks, maintaining contact between units, and filling gaps" is slightly more complicated. Blocking refers to the halting of enemy movement. This may or may not agree with your definition of outrider, depending on how and where it's done. "Protecting flanks", "screening", and "Maintaining contact" are in accordance with your definition of the mobile outrider defense. "Filling gaps" is...complicated...and I'm not sure if your definition agrees with it or not.

The 3% reconnaissance, of course, agrees with your definition. Except that pretty much all ground-based recon is done close to your own forces...especially since the recon elements in question are attached to your division/battalion/whatever. There is very little "but" about it, as implied in your question. Failing to do so could and did lead to disaster.

PzII Luchs is sex, I agree with that. But it's armed with a 20mm cannon (the 50mm variant appears to have been never been produced). The armor appears to be slightly less, too. Judging from the production numbers, it was much less available. And, though it's an estimate based on trends rather than a definitive answer, I'm going to guess that it was less reliable, too.

The Luchs does, however, have a greater operational (gas) range than the Stuart. Very important for a recon vehicle.

Sources:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/flak4.htm

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzer-profiles-1917-1945

For the Ostwind data. I've already cited the cavalry group data.