Paks need a change in reinforcements?

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[Fingertrapped]

I'm not gonna bother rehearsing all previous discussion about this subject. Suffice to say, a lot of people I have talked with agree that the PaK is borderline OP in its current incarnation. With the health buff from armor doctrines "scouting ability" gone you now have to use normal jeeps to uncover them. The current cost difference doesnt cover the big gap in utility paks have over at guns. One PAK used correctly can take out a ton of at guns and it is always effective against all american armor with almost all shots penetrating. The 57MM requires AP rounds to be effective against a lot of axis armor.

It is however not the 57MM which is underpowered and needs to change. Its the PAK. Some possible solutions:

- Pak unreveals itself after 1 shot (on the second shot)
- Pak/57mm accuracy against each other is lowered
- Pak/57mm damage against each other is lowered
- Price of PaK goes up (its worth it)

Alone and unsupported the pak is not a problem. But when its coupled with the rest of wehrmacht it becomes a beast to counter. If a mortar halftrack is present, attempts to single it out for a takedown becomes a cruel joke. Internally on the wehr side I feel the following issues help make the pak a overly tough target:

a) grens that are hard to supress
b) MG42 with longer range
c) 88mm mortar with longer range

Rifles trying to take out a pak gets supressed easily and pak can swallow a nade and keep fighting. The old solution would be to use the old EIR abundance of fireup or offmaps to deal with it, but they are all reduced in availability now. I really think this needs a change to make the combined arms/standoffs more enjoyable without making the scarce amount of fireup/artillery SOLELY based around being a counter to the magic paks.

I'm as axis fanboy as anyone, and I 100% think that the Pak needs to be nerfed. Sometimes you have to kill a part of a text that you really like to make the overall text better. This can be seen as a parallell to the problem with the pak.

Also I believe I am a reasonably skilled player. If it was some kind of magic recipe to take them out, I probably would know. Its not that I dont personally know some ways to take a pak out (though usually not guaranteed), its that neither of them are clear cut, uninterruptable or very cost effective compared to how easy it is for axis to take out a 57mm.

[stumpster]

We are going to get the beta change in that reduces AT Gun accuracy vs. other AT guns, should at least help a bit.

[Two]

Reveal as soon as its shot its first shot and lower its accuracy against us at guns, from what ive experienced 57mm can barely hit the pak  

[puddin4]

1 fire fly properly suppered owns all soooo.. a pak with less raneg then a firefly is more dangerous how?

[gamesguy2]

1 fire fly properly suppered owns all soooo.. a pak with less raneg then a firefly is more dangerous how?

Since when do paks have less range than fireflies.

[Fingertrapped]

A properly supported firefly doesnt own all. Shreks and paks rape the firefly. Having played a couple of games versus you pudding, your solution to at guns is to march in two squads of supression-resistant double shreked grens and just completely wtf rape it in 1 barrage. There is nothing wrong with that, but its a huge pain in the ass for allies to take out paks compared to axis taking out 57mm. Allies cant do anything similar to the pak in Reinforcements, if they can even find it without their advancing tanks and support being completely raped.

[Two]

only way to find a pak other then luck is to move a tank in to get shot at 

[UnLimiTeD]

Ok, so hearby I officially tell everyone how to spot a pak in Fog of war if it's not staying in a fortified position.
I told that to a lot of people, but no one cared.

PAKs give green cover.
There is no green cover on open fields.
So pick an infantry squad, hover the mouse over the field slowly, and when you find green cover where there shouldn't be some, that's your Pak.
Or the enemy built a fortified position there without your notice.
Now call in the Artillery, or usea Mortar.
Also, Smokerounds prevent suppression on your Riflemen. Charge it!

[puddin]

1.) Paks get alot of its shots deflected.  
2.) Paks rely on Stealth or else they absolutly suck.
3.) No Ap Rounds results in far less dmg ability
4.) 57mm does plenty of dmg when used correctly in a support role, its an AT gun, Support your troops with it.
5.) Support your 1 At gun...  Countless times i see people put 1 At gun on the field and expect it to own everything.  1 Pak, dies so easily to a tank, it needs support, Allies need to supprt their at guns with other At as well.  
6.) All AT guns put massive fear into tank players.  

Look, the pak is a ambush unit with 1 decent ability but you can clearly hear it move when its invisable which makes that part of the map off limits to most armor unless people rush it knowing what they are moving into.
A 57mm with Ap roudns only needs 2 shots to demolish some axis armor.  Back it up with 1 firefly, and you have a massive AT Advantage with mobil capabilities.  

Its about teamwork.  A pak sucks unless it has support.  a 57 is terrible unless it has support.  Pay attention and sudden;lt at guns will become easier to deal with.

[puddin]

Suppression resistent?  i just played a game, my shrecks got supressed every time i ran near an MG, so thats a lie.

[Two]

not nearly as quick as my tommies did

[Mysthalin_Axis]

1 fire fly properly suppered owns all soooo.. a pak with less raneg then a firefly is more dangerous how?

Good luck sniping a pak with a firefly when you can't see it. Seriously, good luck.

[Fingertrapped]

The 30 cal will use more time to supress the grens compared to rifles, meaning that hit n runs around corners is very viable.  And using tricks to spot the pak in the FoW just underlines the fact that its extremely hard to locate and take out. Even if you find the time to fuck around in the FoW in a real game, doesnt this seem overly complicated compared to how you do spot and decide upon taking out other units?

Also - a pak + shreks is a way better combination than any combo americans can field, doctrinally or not. Rangers fail against skirts, its completely uneccesary in almost all situations to get within sticky range and airborne will also struggle against skirts. (Skirts which now not even are tied to vet and thus PP.)

I dont see when exactly paks "absolutely suck". They penetrate m10s, shermans and pershings consistently out of cloak. But the main problem is that their utility doesnt stop there; they can also wtfpwn at guns eliminating the american combined arms which is already inferior because of longer range and better supression on the wehr mortar and mg.

And I dont see axis popping smoke rounds everytime they need to take out an at gun. Instead they just charge or flank it with shreks, who nail it in 2 hits most of the time. Also: american mortars = outranged. He just moves his pak back a small distance along with his mortar, and your range disadvantage comes to bear and you get fucked over. Finally, artillery is not abundant in EiRR and I do not see axis forced into using arty everytime they need to take out an at gun.

[panzerjager1943]

Incase you didn't know (which you probably didn't) some changes from the current Beta were implemented,
- AT guns (Wehrmacht Pak 38, US 57mm etc.) are less accurate vs other AT guns.

That being one of them. It applies to the 17pounder too. Accuracy was reduced by 50%.

[deadb0lt]

Never thought i'd see the day where someone would be writing about paks being borderline OP. Intriguing. 

[Sach]

Incase you didn't know (which you probably didn't) some changes from the current Beta were implemented,
- AT guns (Wehrmacht Pak 38, US 57mm etc.) are less accurate vs other AT guns.

That being one of them. It applies to the 17pounder too. Accuracy was reduced by 50%.

noticed that today, makes a massive difference

[The-Goatlord]

Incase you didn't know (which you probably didn't) some changes from the current Beta were implemented,
- AT guns (Wehrmacht Pak 38, US 57mm etc.) are less accurate vs other AT guns.

That being one of them. It applies to the 17pounder too. Accuracy was reduced by 50%.

That patch will make a great deal of the balance discussions you see around the CoH community null and void.

[puddin]

Look, a pak is effective.  But once caliopes and preists come on the field, they all outrange even hummels..... 

Sooo hoenestly in the end, the allies have better range on indirect fire... plain and simple

[MILCH]

ATGuns should be less accurate against INFANTRY too!

[panzerjager1943]

That was done too.