Paks need a change in reinforcements?

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[Sixpack]

Look, a pak is effective.  But once caliopes and preists come on the field, they all outrange even hummels..... 

Sooo hoenestly in the end, the allies have better range on indirect fire... plain and simple

And if ppl invest in their vet it can be realy frustrating I fear (every allied arty gets a 30 sec reduction on the cooldown, axis only 15 sec, from vet2-3)

[Lionel-Richie]

Look, a pak is effective.  But once caliopes and preists come on the field, they all outrange even hummels..... 

Sooo hoenestly in the end, the allies have better range on indirect fire... plain and simple

But those are two doctrines specific to two different armies...a paK is universal.

Maybe they could find a way to make you have to upgrade paks with camo, like Amis and Brits have to upgrade with AP rounds.

[Khorney]

upgrade sounds reasonable, given its efectiveness

[puddin]

Any 57 can have ap rounds.....

I still don;t see where the pak is so much better then a 57.  I fear them both equally.  IF you have more sight, a 57 hits me before i can see it, and a pak does the same. 

[Lionel-Richie]

Any 57 can have ap rounds.....

I still don;t see where the pak is so much better then a 57.  I fear them both equally.  IF you have more sight, a 57 hits me before i can see it, and a pak does the same. 

Yes, but if it doesn't have more sight you will always see the 57, but you will rarely ever see the PaK until after it has fired.

And I'm not sure I said that AP rounds were doctrine specific, I was referring to the indirect fire.

[acker]

The Pak is so much better than the 57mm because it can cloak. This means that the Pak cannot be deliberately sniped, artied, rushed, scouted, or even avoided before the Pak chooses to reveal itself (barring a serious blunder). The Allied counterpart is vulnerable to all of these things, even before opening fire.

It also means that the Pak can wait for any Allied tank to be halfway within its kill zone before opening fire, which deals drastically more damage than opening fire at the fringe of the kill zone (what the 57mm typically does). It doesn't hurt either that the Pak deals more DPS to enemy tanks than the 57mm without AP rounds (though it really depends). An enemy tank can absorb an AP shot, then back up to waste 50 Munitions. An enemy tank cannot avoid something it can't see (and, if it's out for the first time, doesn't even know it exists).

In other words, the Pak is better because it gets to choose when to strike. The 57mm is worse because it doesn't/isn't. That's why the Pak is currently more expensive than the 57mm.

I also do not believe that the game should be balanced using doctrines. Since doctrines are PP-dependent, this means that one side will hold an advantage over another in the beginning of the war. Which is fundamentally imbalanced. Doctrines should therefore complement a player's army; doctrines shouldn't be a necessity for fighting.

[Khorney]

they shouldn't be cloaked while moving, at least. that is retarded

[MannfredvonRitter]

Look up the damages, the Pak has a lower damage than the ATG, with ambush bonus the damage is roughly the same, then less.
Allied tanks are faster, cloaking is necessary, if you wait till you're close with a pak38 before firing it'll just get circled and die, less you support it, even then you're better off firing long range.

FYI pak does 115, ATG does 150 damage per hit. With the ambush bonus I think the Pak comes up to about 130ish or so, if someone knows it plz correct me.

Also, people saying to firefly snipe them, look up the range, pak38 range is 60, higher than the fireflies, firefly gets pwned by pak38's.

Decrease in Pak v 57mm accuracy is fine though I think and quite fair, they shouldn't snipe one another anyways.

[Khorney]

still, having camo AT is ridiculous and near impossible to counter without having a severly damaged tanks, or the axis player lets you stumble across them. even moreso the fact they can move around while cloaked, making them even harder to find. at the very least, they should not be able to move around while remaining invisible, but ideally should function like the sappers PIAT ambush, if it is going to be a default ability

[Fingertrapped]

Pak got a lot of stuff going for it already, out of the box.

- It has higher accuracy versus jeeps than the 57 mm has against bikes.
- It has 10% more basic penetration against pershings than 57 mm against a panther, roughly 20% more against a tiger.
- Much higher penetration against the pershing as a supertank compared to 57mm vs KTs or JagdPanthers.
- It 2 shots quads out of camo. (Pretty powerful)
- It snipes at guns if it wants to.
- Once its cloaked, you dont have to manually engage an ability to gain extra damage/penetration.

When you add in ap rounds for the 57, the penetration and damage clearly favors the 57 mm. But then you are talking about a more expensive unit, and ap rounds do not help it against a camoed pak in the majority of cases.

[Tymathee]

Look, a pak is effective.  But once caliopes and preists come on the field, they all outrange even hummels.....  

Sooo hoenestly in the end, the allies have better range on indirect fire... plain and simple

And if ppl invest in their vet it can be realy frustrating I fear (every allied arty gets a 30 sec reduction on the cooldown, axis only 15 sec, from vet2-3)

but sixpack...axis artillery is already quick. I think nebels are 2 minutes and stukas are 1 minute, vs 3-5 minutes for allied artillery.

they shouldn't be cloaked while moving, at least. that is retarded

I agree. I've always found this silly. I wouldn't mind if all cloaking units couldn't cloak when moving, or if not in a place where you can't hide but this wont happen.

I've alwyas harped against paks, the fact of the matter is, Pak>AT gun when it comes to penetration even with ap rounds because a cloaked pak's first shot gets x 10 penetration and because of it being cloaked, you can damn well make sure you get that shot in and hit. Also, the accuracy is usually pretty high, they tend to hit their target more than at guns, can't tell you howmany times my at gun has missed a tank when i needed it to hit. Then there's the crit tables, which seem to be higher for paks as i've seen many times my low health sherman get hit by a pak and die than a low health say, p4 die from an at gun, this is mainly because they can decloak and recloak and then take that high penetration/damage shot and make sure they kill the tank. It's hard to say how many times i've watched my tank die easily to paks and in teh same game, watch my at gun bounce shots off a damaged tank, it'll go low health, then i dmg engine, tank out gun, destroy engine, and its still crawling off toward help. So it's not so much pak vs at gun, it's pak vs allied armor and at gun vs axis armor, which everyone knows, axis armor is a lot better than allied armor.

[Tymathee]

Pak got a lot of stuff going for it already, out of the box.

- It has higher accuracy versus jeeps than the 57 mm has against bikes.
- It has 10% more basic penetration against pershings than 57 mm against a panther, roughly 20% more against a tiger.
- Much higher penetration against the pershing as a supertank compared to 57mm vs KTs or JagdPanthers.
- It 2 shots quads out of camo. (Pretty powerful)
- It snipes at guns if it wants to.

When you add in ap rounds for the 57, the penetration and damage clearly favors the 57 mm. But then you are talking about a more expensive unit, and ap rounds do not help it against a camoed pak in the majority of cases.

at rounds have also been upped to 50 from 40, you usally only get about 1-2 shots and then you have to wait for it to cooldown and then you only get one other at around and at the same time, if you say, get decrewed, you dont get your at rounds back but all paks picked up by axis infantry can cloak the pak again (which is why i dont even bother with ap rounds except for like a special at call in)

[Sach]

i don't mind the pak, i just wish it couldn't camo after being recrewed

[Fingertrapped]

It actually cant if PE crews it, but it would make sense that normal guys couldnt camo it as they are not pak "specialists" but maybe any moron could just point a 50mm pak at a sherman and shoot it. This is not an argument I would lend any particular credibility though.

[acker]

The Pak puts more rounds on target faster than the 57mm by around 1.1 seconds, or 45.8% (2.4 seconds compared to 3.5 seconds). The ambush bonus also brings up penetration to 100%, I believe.

Something I didn't factor in: the Pak's target table also indicates that the Pak is more likely to penetrate the target with normal shots as well. The Sherman (and variants thereof) and PanzerIV have equal penetration ratings. The Pak can penetrate the Cromwell 100% of the time. Against the Churchill/Pershing, the Pak has a penetration rating of 45%. Against Panthers/Tiger/KT, the 57mm has a penetration rating of 35%. And, though it isn't a tank and really isn't relevant, the 57mm vs. Jagdpanther is god-awful; 18%.

http://coh-stats.com/Weapon:57mm_AT_Gun
http://coh-stats.com/Weapon:50mm_Pak_38

Circling in EIR is generally a bad idea. You see, the Axis tend to have the most powerful and prevalent close-to-mid-range AT weapon in the game. With the advent of treadbreaker, running into the FOW is doubly a bad idea. So the choice is either...

-Run, suffer massive amounts of damage.
-Circle, pray they don't have backup.

In other words, you are generally better off firing from mid-range. You are still granted the ability to fire at long range if you want. And if the combat doesn't suit you, don't fire at all, the enemy won't notice. A 57mm doesn't have the choices available to the Pak. Nor has as much protection.

That said, circling is often just as bad for an Axis tank. Even with skirts, running into a sticky-bomb wielding Rifle squad might ruin your day. And since tanks are much bigger investments for an Axis player than an Allied player...it's just not wise to run into the FOW without a plan.


Off-topic, but of interest: Allied tanks shouldn't try running away from the Panther unless they have a plan. The Panther is just as fast as the Sherman, and has better acceleration.

A note on artillery: Range really doesn't matter unless your artillery has trouble moving. Mobility and cooldown are far more important. Damage is also important, but is worth little unless your rounds/second is relatively high.

[Fingertrapped]

Also - you cant snipe paks or actively mortar them because of the cloak, something you easily can with 57mms.

[AmPmAllied]

Yes you can =)

Use a jeep to scout if you have trouble with PAKs, or just wait for it to fire on a tank, backup and mortar it to death.

[EscforrealityTLS]

There is nothing wrong with PAKs there is however something wrong with the Brits, they have a complete inability to deal with them. Give the Brits something to help deal with PAKs, but leave the PAK alone it has been fine until now, why change it.

[acker]

Yes you can =)

Use a jeep to scout if you have trouble with PAKs, or just wait for it to fire on a tank, backup and mortar it to death.

Assuming, of course, you know where the Pak is, because it's invisible. If you don't know where it is or even if it's out, you can't wait for it. Good luck with the Jeep, by the way.


I just lose a tank, shrug, then assault. Or just saturate an area with enough crap so the Pak dies to something.

[AmPmAllied]

If you don't listen for them you already failed. PAKs are very loud when moving.