Paks need a change in reinforcements?

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[Fingertrapped]

Look scrapking, both vcoh/of and the previous EiR offered more options to find and nail the pak without having to cut open your own thumb and let one drop of your blood and human soul fall down upon the sacrificial altar of the medieval god Paktan to see green shields make themself visible in the fog of war or change to the magical pak frequency on your George Lucas Pak Speakers to decide upon its location. These kind of proposed "counters" are ridicolous compared to more normal type of ideas for counters, like "use an MG + mp40 volks together", "pop mortar smoke, bring in flamers" or "snipe with cloaked pak, rush in tanks".

Availability has taken away the allied ability to throw some units away in exchange for information, airborne doesn't even have a recon plane yet and who knows if they will actually get one. Even if they add recon run back, both infantry and armor doctrine is hard pressed for options other than suciding jeeps to find the paks. Scouting used to allow armor to find paks with the jeep still making it out of there, and this ability is gone as well.

Personally I'm so sick of the paks when I play against it, that I just shower it with arty. But I'd rather not feel forced to do that. And guess what? The feeling must be mutual, because everytime I field a pak as wehr it is a target for constanty arty to a degree that doesnt even start to compare to the 57mm.

And honestly when you look at it, the PaK's a easymode n00b kind of unit. Its not hard to manage at all. If its location has not been discovered, you dont worry about it at all. The pak is "safe", because it is cloaked.

- Free cloak anywhere
- Automatic extra damage
- 1 buy, no clicks required

Also the cloaking damage is not on a timer like the AP rounds either.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Look scrapking, both vcoh/of and the previous EiR offered more options to find and nail the pak without having to cut open your own thumb and let one drop of your blood and human soul fall down upon the sacrificial altar of the medieval god Paktan to see green shields make themself visible in the fog of war or change to the magical pak frequency on your George Lucas Pak Speakers to decide upon its location. These kind of proposed "counters" are ridicolous compared to more normal type of ideas for counters, like "use an MG + mp40 volks together", "pop mortar smoke, bring in flamers" or "snipe with cloaked pak, rush in tanks".

Availability has taken away the allied ability to throw some units away in exchange for information, airborne doesn't even have a recon plane yet and who knows if they will actually get one. Even if they add recon run back, both infantry and armor doctrine is hard pressed for options other than suciding jeeps to find the paks. Scouting used to allow armor to find paks with the jeep still making it out of there, and this ability is gone as well.

Personally I'm so sick of the paks when I play against it, that I just shower it with arty. But I'd rather not feel forced to do that. And guess what? The feeling must be mutual, because everytime I field a pak as wehr it is a target for constanty arty to a degree that doesnt even start to compare to the 57mm.

And honestly when you look at it, the PaK's a easymode n00b kind of unit. Its not hard to manage at all. If its location has not been discovered, you dont worry about it at all. The pak is "safe", because it is cloaked.

- Free cloak anywhere
- Automatic extra damage
- 1 buy, no clicks required

Also the cloaking damage is not on a timer like the AP rounds either.

It could be worse, you could have an 8 pop vehicle as your only AT which dies to everything, including what it's meant to hunt. By comparison ATG's seem kinda cosy.

[Khorney]

maybe the best idea would be to not make it so ridiculous, then reduce it's cost and pop to on par with the 57mm? since at the moment it easily makes it's money back several times over.

IMO, if the camo ability (whether paid for or not) was similar to the PIAT ambush, then the cost and pop could be significantly reduced. that seems a much more reasonable solution to the current state of affairs

[Fingertrapped]

It could be worse, you could have an 8 pop vehicle as your only AT which dies to everything, including what it's meant to hunt. By comparison ATG's seem kinda cosy.

The 57mm die to tanks in just the same way as a marder if the 57 is rushed and it has no backup. The marder has small arms immunity to a large degree, which the 57 mm and PaK doesnt. What does this have to do with the wehr-american anti-tank gun balance? At any rate, PE anti tank ability should become a simple and entertaining once some tank hunter companies emerge with enough PPs/strategic depth. Tank hunter companies will be absolutely deadly against allied armor if the Hetzer was just copied from retail (can take on pershings and win) as well as teller mines being insanely powerful in the EiRR environment.

[MannfredvonRitter]

It could be worse, you could have an 8 pop vehicle as your only AT which dies to everything, including what it's meant to hunt. By comparison ATG's seem kinda cosy.

The 57mm die to tanks in just the same way as a marder if the 57 is rushed and it has no backup. The marder has small arms immunity to a large degree, which the 57 mm and PaK doesnt. What does this have to do with the wehr-american anti-tank gun balance? At any rate, PE anti tank ability should become a simple and entertaining once some tank hunter companies emerge with enough PPs/strategic depth. Tank hunter companies will be absolutely deadly against allied armor if the Hetzer was just copied from retail (can take on pershings and win) as well as teller mines being insanely powerful in the EiRR environment.

May be worth looking up the stats, pershings are more than a match for a hetzer, due in part to the hetzer's low health.

Marders against americn players are faced with a big issue, ATG's rape them. This means Marders have to stay further back than ATG's do, they're also in general less effective against tanks than ATG's are.

If you don't believe me use them against a competent American player.

[Fingertrapped]

Too bad theres no stats page for EiRR, then we could know for sure how they implemented the hetzer and the pershing. You can still two shot the 57mm atg with a marder hit and shrek hit. At any rate you are leading the discussion away from the original subject, aka offtopic.

[panzerjager1943]

Pershing and Hetzer are the same as retail.

[Fingertrapped]

It is the same as from the current retail version? Cause if it is, you can be damn sure that the hetzer will give the pershing a good run for its money. It all depends on whether they imported the pershing with the improved gun from beta. If they give the pershing the improved gun, it should cost munitions to upgrade as this upgrade is a part of the 76mm universal upgrade for shermans.

[panzerjager1943]

Not when/if we implement Pershing upgun..

[acker]

Open talk is always preferable.

Doctrines shouldn't balance things, the base factions should be balanced first. Doctrines take PP to get, and PPs take games to get. Can a game be balanced on doctrines, per my previous response?

Things will change, no doubt. But it will be much more difficult to balance doctrines+base than the base game, if only due to the increased complexity, disregarding all other factors. Ideally, all factions should be equal without PP.

Arty spam to kill Paks is a problem in of itself.

Incidentally, there were also quite a few balance issues between Americans and Germans in EIR, too. Especially over the past incarnations you have referred to, depending on what your definition of "rough" is. The Pak and 57mm was just part of that equation. The changes to the Pak weren't by a few percentage points, I believe. There were a few drastic changes, both up and down. And, since those guns were part of these factions, they were also part of the larger, unbalanced, factional talk.

It also makes sense that top players were consistently at the top of each race. Does this somehow demonstrate balance? Nor am I stating that the most recent EIR version was not balanced. The newest pre-OF version was adequately balanced in itself, considering all things. I'm simply stating that the Axis were consistently more fun to play than the Allies, by most of the top players. Which was a problem.

Incidentally, how do you detect a pak using your speakers? I've never gotten back an answer to that, and I really need one, because I don't know how. Tanks are much easier to spot through the FOW. I've managed to detect sandbags, bunkers, wire to an accuracy of maybe one-fifth of the typical map...but never a Pak.

[puddin]

How about this.. Support ur 57, it won;t die, Support your pak it won;t die. 

What it comes down to is the allies hate the hold fire ability and the fact that they can walk past it and it can get away. 

Plain and simple a pak un cloaked and not on its 1st shot, against a sherman or pershing front armor sucks.   

I have played both, i have used armor against both, I am far, far, far more intimidated by the Sound of Ap rounds, rather then the sound of 1 pak which is hardly supportted by any more At and is easily over run.  the pak, you cna see where it is by the smoke streak by the way so it makes it increadbly easy to spot it, or the area it is.  then when it moves it makes veyr lound lunking sounds that can be heard a screen or 2 away

[acker]

Plain and simple a pak un cloaked and not on its 1st shot, against a sherman or pershing front armor sucks.

I've posted the penetration stats for both the Pak and the 57mm a page or two ago. The Pak is generally better at penetrating frontal armor than the 57mm.

The rest of the thread should be read, if you haven't done so already.

[Nevyen]

Got agree here with how to track a pak,  usually the smoke streak can give you a generalised idea of where it is, hence you use scout vehicles to determine where they are (bait). 

That then allows you a rough estimate on where they are even if they move as forcing them to move will give them away. 

I usually barrage the area then move in with infantry.

Even if the infantry get supressed you now know where they are and can either bring in armour to flank or continue to barrage, with a focus on the anti infantry elements to free up infantry to deal with the paks.

the mad rush into a pak position only works if you have a croc backed up with infantry, otherwise you need to scot spot and emliniate roadblocks like mgs and other elements.

[acker]

What do you mean by smoke streak? And what vehicles do you use to draw fire?

I've tried using tanks or Jeeps. That didn't work out well  . I'm going to try M8s the next time I play.

Suppressed riflemen die hard, and are irreplaceable.


Jeep scouting kinda works for me, if they are in the bad habit of cloaking the Pak only 10 units away from the front lines. I've nailed a few Paks that way. But that's too reliant on them screwing up, I need a better strategy.

[Malevolence]

The shell has a giant ass trail after it, use your eyes to locate where it originated from.

[Skaevola]

The shell has a giant ass trail after it, use your eyes to locate where it originated from.

Contrary to most axis players, allied players aren't staring at the pak when it fires.

[Fingertrapped]

The whole argument about spotting the paks by paranormal means is flawed. You dont have to go to these extraordinary means to "get to" any allied units. 57MMs are dead easy to displace now, with mortar halftracks and paks running rampant against the already inferior allied combined arms.

[acker]

It has to fire before you can begin to find its direction? That hurts. Something with dodge, or high HP...


Actually, judging from the M8s perceived accuracy at long range, it might work if I skirt one as long as it keeps moving...but if it dies, that's going to suck. But it has good acceleration, so it would be easier to move around the thing if there are obstacles to block shots.

Enough theorycrafting. I'll try this later.