balance musings

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[DeadlyShoe]

-Fireflies cost too much pop.  They're tank destroyers.  Granted, they are superior to most other tank destroyers, but this should price them at about 12 max. They also might cost too much manpower.

-I know it's been a while.. but I still think m10s should be at 9 pop, for similar reasons.

-I think reducing the ATHT to 3 pop was a mistake.  They arn't a pure AT unit and are quite strong against infantry with Focus Fire.

-Most emplacements are decrewed by mortars in about 2-3 shots. I recall reading their cover type was changed to make them a little more resistant but I don't think it helped.  (I did not play brits before this latest patch so I don't have a point of comparison.)

-Mortar emplacements are just terrible. We all knew that but seriously. Ugh.

-Tommies perhaps cost too much. You do not see much unupgraded British infantry which is a little odd compared to other factions.  It doesn't seem to have underpowered them any owing to riflenadespam.  But I don't think reducing the MP cost of tommies would increase the upgrade spam.

-Regular scout cars are in search of a role. They are too clumsy and shortsighted to be scouts (compared to Kettenrad especially), and too weak (compared to Infantry HT) to fight.  They can run down snipers, but that seems to be it.

-The Wirbelwind is useless. I want to like it but it doesn't seem to work.

-The Flak Vierling is useable, but way overpriced. The closest point of comparison is the Bofors, which is semi-mobile, cheaper, less popcap, and better AV. And I don't think anyone has complained about the Bofors being overpowered.

[CommanderHolt]

-Tommies perhaps cost too much. You do not see much unupgraded British infantry which is a little odd compared to other factions.  It doesn't seem to have underpowered them any owing to riflenadespam.  But I don't think reducing the MP cost of tommies would increase the upgrade spam.

By the same reason, you don't see much unupgraded PanzerGrenadiers fighting as a 3 man or even 4 man squads. You need to have G43 for them to have fighting capabilities.

-I think reducing the ATHT to 3 pop was a mistake.  They arn't a pure AT unit and are quite strong against infantry with Focus Fire.

They can't really do anything else other then Treadbreaker and Focus Fire (which means you have to wait for like 4 mins) and they can die easily to AT-guns and even small arms.

[Fingertrapped]

If you think unupgraded tommies or rifles are weak, try 3 man g43 squads costing 70 munitions (almost as much as a bar) who cant even scratch tommies. A g43 squad can be shooting at tommies for 10 seconds without the tommy health bar moving at all. Brit infantry WALK over PE infantry, like they were unupgraded pios. Brit infantry do NOT need a cost decrease in any way.

Try unupgraded PGs or g43s for any kind of combat outside of sitting in a building.
Outgunned by engineers, easily. Ignite to flames, shermans can gib 3 guys in a shot.

None of the basic PE infantry can operate like wehrmacht, british or american infantry can atm.

My 3 man mp44 squad lost to 5 half dead rifles at point black, in green cover. Wtf?
2 mp44 squads charge my rangers in cover, 1 mp44 squad completely dead before the other runs and the rangers still at 90% health.

Mp44s need a price reduction and assault.grens a increase in availability. They are an important part of how PE overruns a infantry heavy position. I dont even use 1 of them in my company atm because they fail so hard. And g43s should be cheaper, as they just make a 3 man g43 squad equal to unupgrade rifles.

[DeadlyShoe]

g43s are a seperate issue don't you think?   

[CommanderHolt]

No they have the same issue because Vanilla Panzer Grenadiers get rolled over without G43s. Plus Tommies can beat 4 man Panzer Grenadier squad pretty easily.

[BigDick]

No they have the same issue because Vanilla Panzer Grenadiers get rolled over without G43s. Plus Tommies can beat 4 man Panzer Grenadier squad pretty easily.

yeah but its 70 muni for each g43 just to have a chance against vanilla riflemen or engies?

BAR is suppior in every case....damage dealt, 360° multiple supression...harder to loose a whole squad (can stay much longer in battle) usefull tu recrew weapons....

PE inf (except fallschirms) suck and even fallschirms get mowed down by riflenades
the mp44 dudes are only useful when you suicide rush 2-3 squads in an inf HT into a huge blob....

otherwise they will be dead before they are in shooting distance

[Sach]

i dont think brits need any buffing or pop reducing on the firefly tbh. Only issues i have with brits atm are skirts being too readily available weakening the already shitty piat.

[puddin]

Wow Deadly, I wonder Which Faction you play? 

By enlarge, what faction is your main? 

[CrazyWR]

Wirbles are certainly not useless...its a lot like a tougher Quad...

[DeadlyShoe]

I've played Infantry, Royal Engineers and Luftwaffe so far in EIRR, with more games on Luftwaffe than the others.

The Wirbel's like a slightly tougher much slower more expensive quad with less ability to actually kill things.

****

Theoretically, with skilled play and using other units to spot and soak fire, you can use 1 firefly to knock out 1 tiger.  But you have all of 3 popcap to make up the Firefly's lack of anti infantry capability.  That lack is exarcebated by the fact that Tigers can knock infantry squads off the field in 1 or 2 shots.  So the Fireflies (and m10s for that matter) tend to die to shreks or Paks in that scenario.

Now compare the Firefly to the PIV.  The Firefly more pop, more fuel, more manpower. It can beat it in a fight (unless the PIV moves to point blank) but again it lacks its anti-infantry ability. I think that's the pop price range it should be at - a medium tank that trades anti-infantry for AV. 

Of course then there's the Panther, which is probably closest to the Firefly in role.  The trouble is that there is still a world of difference between the Panther's anti infantry capability and the Firefly's, especially when considering Shreks. The Panther can engage allied infantry with confidence; the Firefly can only resort to running troops over.  The effect this has on popcap efficiency can't be understated. 

[puddin]

And your forgettinging things such as Button... 

Button the tiger and you get 4 firefly shots ona  tiger. 

Have AN lt on the tommy Squad with Arty,  And anti inf can be handled.  Bring a 2nd bren squad to cover the first while it fires....  Then when thats done, button again. 

Thedres many ways you can do it
2 brens with firefly is 24 pop cap. 

how about this.  Play with an american, and suddenl;ly you have Stickes and MGs... The 2 kmain weakeneses of Brits. 

See in EIRR brits aa being played liek front line drag em out battles.  Hard to do, along with PE doing the same. 

When in reality they really compliment one another....

[DeadlyShoe]

Of course I'm not forgetting Button.  You can't balance all brit AT around the assumption the enemy won't be able to shoot back.   For that matter, Button rarely works against Axis heavies because they keep the range open.

You'll note that 1 bren and a firefly is 19 popcap, more than the 17 of the tiger and still with less overall anti-infantry ability.

[LordMalgoroth]

The Tiger is also slower, doctrine specific and more expensive. The firefly is just fine as it is. It scares the living shit out of axis players with tanks on the field and makes them think twice about any risky maneuvers. And with button fire combined with its insane range, it'll make the opponent pay for being reckless with his armor.

[RaptorCommander]

If you think unupgraded tommies or rifles are weak, try 3 man g43 squads costing 70 munitions (almost as much as a bar) who cant even scratch tommies. A g43 squad can be shooting at tommies for 10 seconds without the tommy health bar moving at all. Brit infantry WALK over PE infantry, like they were unupgraded pios. Brit infantry do NOT need a cost decrease in any way.

If your going to spend your munitions on G43s u should waste it on three man squads. pay the extra 50 mp and have a 4 man squad.

I haven't had a chance to do it on EIR but on vCOH 2-3 g43 squads slaughter all infantry that charge at them (especially airborne)

Of course I'm not forgetting Button.  You can't balance all brit AT around the assumption the enemy won't be able to shoot back.   For that matter, Button rarely works against Axis heavies because they keep the range open.

If your brit button is your AT weapon of choice. It owns all.

[RaptorCommander]

umm shoudl view my posts first lol

[Fingertrapped]

Yeah you definitely should, G43s come in a package of two rifles so adding a fourth man does not add anything but one of those slow firing gimpy k98s. Theres never more than 2 g43s on a squad.

In vcoh g43 slaughters, but not in beta where it was severely nerfed. Remember that current EIRR does not reflect the current retail version, but the changes they thought were good from the late Beta.

And also, even in the current retail version g43s do not rape tommies. Far from it. And two riflenade hits forces a PG squad to retreat, on top of bren tommies basically sniping pgs on the retreat.

[RaptorCommander]

Really it only gives them two G43s  .
But I was trying to refer to the overall units survivability with the 4th man and those longevity on the field so you get more value for money, so to speak.

[Fingertrapped]

Once they nerf slow to not affect retreating units and to not stack (multiple slows stack) a price reduction in the g43 should be okay.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Standard Panzer Grenadiers are about as effective as Engineers, they really are that horrible.

The G43 makes them useful inside a building, but outside of the building they're still toast.

Assault Grenadiers should cost very little if any munitions. They are mainline infantry for the PE, they were not even hardly 'high tech' infantry, being accesible from very early in the game, you could almost get assault grenadiers at the same time as riflemen.

The paranoia was that they have STG44's which rape, but this wasn't considered along with their horrible health, making them useless for assaulting a position (you lose 1-2 guys before even closing the gap), useless for defending buildings (you'll get shot out of it from long range). For their cost, almost no PE players even bother to use them, about the only time they're useful is against riflemen standing in open ground, even then you will lose 1-2 guys and have to retreat most likely or face the possibility of losing any veterancy the unit gained.

The reason almost all PE players are luft, is because FJ are the only viable infantry that PE possesses. Even they need to be used with a large degree of cunning and foresight to be effective for cost. I'm sick of hearing PE are OP, Wehr if any, are OP, not PE. Americans are perhaps OP, British are not.

FYI the firefly is on par with the panther in terms of tank hunting capability, in fact I would argue it surpasses it, with that 55 range. Tigers have 40, snipe them. It costs what, 450 fuel? Panthers cost 590, tigers (all variants) around 700. Just nubs use it like a sherman at close range, I've seen people in this thread do that, so stop whining when in fact the reality is you don't know how to use it, check it up on CoH stats and perhaps then you will understand how its used.

What currently slaughters PE, blobs. Infantry blob or tank blob, do either of them and you will guarantee success against a PE position unless they have help.

STG44's should cost 40 munitions and 300 manpower, roughly. G43's should be around 50. Panzer Grenadiers cost more than rifles and lose to them horribly without upgrades.

[Tymathee]

Standard Panzer Grenadiers are about as effective as Engineers, they really are that horrible.

The G43 makes them useful inside a building, but outside of the building they're still toast.

g43 is stil usefull, especially with slow. Its on par with the bar, albeit on a weaker platform, you're slowing downt he unit and at the same time, leaving them open to all kind of fire unless if you suppress with a bar.

Assault Grenadiers should cost very little if any munitions. They are mainline infantry for the PE, they were not even hardly 'high tech' infantry, being accesible from very early in the game, you could almost get assault grenadiers at the same time as riflemen.

The paranoia was that they have STG44's which rape, but this wasn't considered along with their horrible health, making them useless for assaulting a position (you lose 1-2 guys before even closing the gap), useless for defending buildings (you'll get shot out of it from long range). For their cost, almost no PE players even bother to use them, about the only time they're useful is against riflemen standing in open ground, even then you will lose 1-2 guys and have to retreat most likely or face the possibility of losing any veterancy the unit gained.

All units with any type of close range weaponry that comes default cost munitions, it doesn't matter what unit its on.

The reason almost all PE players are luft, is because FJ are the only viable infantry that PE possesses. Even they need to be used with a large degree of cunning and foresight to be effective for cost. I'm sick of hearing PE are OP, Wehr if any, are OP, not PE. Americans are perhaps OP, British are not.

I think a lot of people use Luft because of falls and also because the other doctrine aren't in yet. I think that when we get docs, scorched earth will be used more than any pe faction because they get the most goodies in vcoh.

FYI the firefly is on par with the panther in terms of tank hunting capability, in fact I would argue it surpasses it, with that 55 range. Tigers have 40, snipe them. It costs what, 450 fuel? Panthers cost 590, tigers (all variants) around 700. Just nubs use it like a sherman at close range, I've seen people in this thread do that, so stop whining when in fact the reality is you don't know how to use it, check it up on CoH stats and perhaps then you will understand how its used.

so you get in close with the panther, where the firefly gets a lower rof. Firefly's cost more than a panther in terms of mp at 680 and less in fulr at 380.

What currently slaughters PE, blobs. Infantry blob or tank blob, do either of them and you will guarantee success against a PE position unless they have help.

STG44's should cost 40 munitions and 300 manpower, roughly. G43's should be around 50. Panzer Grenadiers cost more than rifles and lose to them horribly without upgrades.

very true. i think part of the difference from vcoh to reinforcmeents is you can't spam panzer grens anymore. But g43's being 50, nah. like is aid, they're on par with  bars and you'd see a seroiusly spam of g43's just like you saw volks all use mp40's when they were 50. I think the PE are doing fine, they win quite a few games, wehr may win more but more people are comfortable with them in the eir environment. I just cna't wait for the docs to be implemented.