Hetzer to expensive

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[crimsonrabbit]

The hetzer is horrible. It takes forever for the bastard to cloak and its strength is not so good. Hetzer vs Sherman: Sherman will win even with the Hetzer cloaked and gets a first shot at Sherman. I know from actual experience using the Hetzer. Stug ftw.

[Mgallun74]

i have seen some axis players make the hetzer really deadly, just depends how u use it i suppose.

[Mysthalin_Axis]

The hetzer is horrible. It takes forever for the bastard to cloak and its strength is not so good. Hetzer vs Sherman: Sherman will win even with the Hetzer cloaked and gets a first shot at Sherman. I know from actual experience using the Hetzer. Stug ftw.

I know from actual experience trying to kill APEX's hetzer that one hetzer and a shrek squad managed to take out 2 cromwell tanks attacking it at once, with flankspeed, by utilizing it's long range, cloak, extreme front armor, and the hetzer's surroundings.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The hetzer cloaks instantly, btw. It only takes time to cloak if its in combat.

[DiBBs]

Woah Woah guys!!

My hetzer has been up against 2 m10 dank destroyers at once in once game, then after i killed those, i killed a sherman upgunned aftwards, its all about microing it correctly.

If they tray and flank you just back up away from them and your hetzer will keep deflecting their shots and shooting them.

[Smokaz]

If a hetzer beat two full health m10s, George Bush was microing the m10s.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

It does outrange them.

[Mysthalin_Axis]

Smokaz - don't forget that CoH is a game based on dicerolls.
So, one day a hetzer will OMGWTF pwn 2 upgun shermans and come out lolling at half health, the other day it'll die to a single M10 without half-healthing it.

[Smokaz]

Really now, Ive used hetzers with PE since launch of EiR and tank hunters were my favorite PE doctrine because it was so powerful in vanilla. Even when they live they are NOT worth 265 fuel and I even had a vet 3 one with 400 xp and several vet 2s . Its okay, good, decent, its not a UP unit when you baby it and Ive set up some very very punishing ambushes with hetzer + teller mine. If it was 200 fuel it would replace the marder in PE tank hunter companies. (which makes alot of sense imo)

I can somewhat agree on the manpower cost, but not the fuel.

The hetzer is not a hard unit to counter. Americans will have no problems in countering the hetzer. AP rounds will 3 shot it, upgunned shermans do very good against them and that story about the two M10s getting owned just isnt how it usuallywill play out if a single hetzer has to fight 2 m10s. Id love to see the replay of this. Hell if it was like this, I would ask for it to be changed as 2 m10s should rape one hetzer.

Also, this is a team game. If brits have a firefly and a command tank on the field, the hetzer will be facing m10s and upgunned shermans who can handle it to the face and a firefly in the back outranging it. Hell, a M8 can take out a hetzer if the surrounding terrain allows for it. (without support of course, but you dont see upgunned pumas raping shermans or m10s) A stuart does well too although the stuart has its own problems making it less useful for flanking armor.

I will however test them some more after the veterancy tables for the hetzer was recently changed to much better bonuses and I'm in no way saying that a properly microed and supported hetzer is a bad unit. Its good if overpriced in fuel. But setting it up in cloak, putting teller mines in front of it, keeping front armor always towards the fast allied armor (tetrarches, m10s etc) is a lot harder than using say, a firefly. (just keep distance) If they put the health bonus to vet 2 and just added a tiny bit of damage (1.1 or 1.2) with penetration at vet 3 the thing would be worth 265 fuel.

That said the m10 probably needs a small buff against other tanks shooting at it (not paks and shreks)

[Mgallun74]

what is the penetration and damage of the hetzers gun?

[brn4meplz]

damage 87.5

penetration
Long .805
medium .909
short 1

of course thats base each unit has a different penetration modifiers to the base penetration

like a sherman is .623
cromwell is 1.22
churchill is .58

the list goes on

[Mgallun74]

damage 87.5

penetration
Long .805
medium .909
short 1

of course thats base each unit has a different penetration modifiers to the base penetration

like a sherman is .623
cromwell is 1.22
churchill is .58

the list goes on

tanks dude.. maybe next time if we play together i wont get all my stuff killed lol.

what does all that .803 and so on mean?  at long range if it penetrates it will only do 80 percent damage of 87.5?

also, they could make 1 change to the marder which will make buying the hetzer smarter!

[brn4meplz]

No Damage is constant. Always, penetration is the chance you will pierce the armour. And with Tank guns/At guns they do 15% of their damage if the round deflects(most tank/AT guns anyway)

So you'd have abase chance at long range of 80% modified by the shermans penetration values, gives approximately 50% if I'm correct(front armour) to penetrate the armour and apply 87.5 damage. Now if the shot deflects off the front armour it will inflict ~13 damage. The reason why deflections don't kill a tank is because you need a critical shot to inflict a killing blow. a deflection isn't a hit and cannot score a critical.(criticals are, main gun destroyed, damaged/destroyed engine, Make wreck, Out of control, etc)

Hope that clarified it a bit. the main strength the hetzer has going for it is that it's front deflection chance is so high most medium tanks bounce rounds off it, thus doing little or no damage. but things like M10's, FF, Pershings, upgunned shermans and AP round 57's do so much is beause all those tanks/upgrades have penetration modifiers.

[DiBBs]

smokaz what would i have to gain from lying on the internetz

fact of the matter is i just out microed those m10s, I made every shot count, their shots missed and bounced off the front.
I got like 4 rear shots on them altogether. Maybe it was just bad micro on who ever was controlling them.
I'd show you the replay if i knew the battle number but im not prepared to go through like 30 battle files.

[scrapking]

I'm inclined to agree Hetzer is overpriced, not because it is a bad unit, or by comparison to some allied units - but rather by comparing it to other Axis units.

Hetzer or PIV for example?  Same price, PIV is much better option - if it even is an option by  including 30pp reinforcements.  Hetzer plays more like a Stug in many ways, and is priced like a PIV.  You could say the same thing about the PIVIS, except I suggest it is the relative cost of other AT armored units (which PE are dependent on for AT)  which prohibits the PIVIS more than the PIVIS cost itself.

I understand the Hetzer has its role and is a specialized unit, so in some ways to compare a PIV is not fair, it really comes down to what a PE (or Wehrmacht player with Tankbuster reinforcements) player would want to spend his fuel on.  I don't even really think that PE is underpowered or anything, its just that the Hetzer seems like a poor choice of resource expense compared to other options.  Its not even that Hetzer sucks, it just puts too much of a fuel strain on the company design - when other, cheaper units, can fill the same role.

Especially when the PE player depends so much on fuel for most units in his company.  The Hetzer could probably stand to be as low priced (or close to) as a StuG - possibly even the same popcap, and it wouldn't upset any applecarts.  Going Tankbuster should offer the Hetzer as a replacement for Marders much the same way that FJ are replacements for Assault Grens, even though they are in a similar price range, but the Hetzers & Marders are not.

Additionally, I'd like to point out that just because a Wehr Panther is a certain price does not mean that the PE Panther has to be that same price.  The AT options, medium tank options, and overall fuel requirements for each doctrine are far different, and again, PE just relies much more on fuel than really any other doctrine does.  They should maybe get some kind of discount by comparison.  Maybe if Hetzers were lowered only a little bit, and PE Panthers were also lowered a little bit, it would give PE a little unit flexibility.

As is, most PE players that I know avoid Panthers and Hetzers because of the fuel costs alone - although they do perform quite well with their company layouts as is.  So I really don't want to impose a strong buff to PE as much as encourage some greater unit variation, and not have certain units ignored because they are perceived to be too costly.

This isn't a matter of PE being too weak, most units are quite good, the problem is that others are entirely avoided.



[EDIT]  I liked DasNoobs suggestion  of allowing it to turn while cloaked, that would go a long way to making the unit more desireable, and worth its cost.

[MannfredvonRitter]

I have tried the Panther on occasion for my PE. I found to my dismay that it seriously curtailed my long range AT capabilities or my light vehicle capabilities and left me without an answer to the firefly unfortunately. As a result I had to remove the panther.

The panther for Panzer Elite was cheaper in vCoH because it filled a large vulnerability of the panzer elite against armour, especially in the late game. Considering EiR is basically ALL late game I think that's a big issue for the poor old PE. PE had ample options for AT which were free of fuel costs, this was to negate their lackings in anti tank weaponry. Pricing the panther for PE the same as for Wehr is a fallacy. Comparing the Hetzer to the Sherman or P4 is also a fallacy. It needs to be considered in its larger environment.

The Hetzer also has a longer range than any other tank except the firefly with the sights upgrade. 45-->55. It has very strong front armour. I feel its fuel cost however, is unjustified in its inflexibility. It is useful against very specific armour units and has VERY limited usefulness against infantry.

[scrapking]

I have tried the Panther on occasion for my PE. I found to my dismay that it seriously curtailed my long range AT capabilities or my light vehicle capabilities and left me without an answer to the firefly unfortunately. As a result I had to remove the panther.

The panther for Panzer Elite was cheaper in vCoH because it filled a large vulnerability of the panzer elite against armour, especially in the late game. Considering EiR is basically ALL late game I think that's a big issue for the poor old PE. PE had ample options for AT which were free of fuel costs, this was to negate their lackings in anti tank weaponry. Pricing the panther for PE the same as for Wehr is a fallacy. Comparing the Hetzer to the Sherman or P4 is also a fallacy. It needs to be considered in its larger environment.

The Hetzer also has a longer range than any other tank except the firefly with the sights upgrade. 45-->55. It has very strong front armour. I feel its fuel cost however, is unjustified in its inflexibility. It is useful against very specific armour units and has VERY limited usefulness against infantry.

Agreed, especially boldfaced.

[BigDick]

The panther for Panzer Elite was cheaper in vCoH because it filled a large vulnerability of the panzer elite against armour, especially in the late game. Considering EiR is basically ALL late game I think that's a big issue for the poor old PE.

the vulnerability of PE are their fragile units in "late game" and in vCOH it is compensated with normal repair rates, a bergetiger's ability to retrieve carcasses, their basic infantry being able to repair and getting a cheap (50 munitions) combat weapon upgrade and a global fast repair upgrade