[PE+Brits] Infantry Halftrack and Bren Carrier

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[Mysthalin_Axis]

The Infantry Halftrack is a rather viable PE anti-infantry tool, even though it might seem overpriced at times by most PE players.
It can ahnialate infantry very effectively, especially when a G43 squad is put into it, and that is absolutely fine.
However, I think it becomes borderline, or even heavily OP once a double shrek grenadier squad gets into one. Now, it wouldn't be too much of a problem if the grenadiers would actually take casualties once the infantry halftrack is killed, but they don't. The grenadiers shoot two missiles while in the halftrack, get around the tank, the IHT dies(or doesnt), and the grenadiers unleash another two shots, rendering the tank almost unusable, or killing it(if it had been shot by a pak, for instance). For this reason, I would propose to bring back the vanilla casualty rates infantry took from IHTs when the IHT exploded. Right now, it is BENEFICIAL to stay in the halftrack when it dies, as your squad might get insta-gibbed by the next shot that hits the IHT due to splash damage, whereas you will lose at most 1 guy if the halftrack explodes violently while you are still in it. The Wehr and US halftracks should have higher casualty rates, as well.


The reason I bring up the Bren gun carrier is the fact it costs MORE than an IHT while being inferior to it in every way.
Bren Gun Carrier : 220 MP 35 Fuel.
Infantry Halftrack : 210 MP 25 Fuel.
Now, the BGC does not retain it's vCoH ability of buttoning, units in it die even when the bren gun isn't exploding violently, just taking shots(need comfirmation on this one).
It is slower, it has a very poorly damaging gun, it can hold only 1 squad with 6 guys(Effectively from a PIAT to a commando), when an IHT can hold 2 squads with 8 guys(Effectively double shrecker + KCH/many more combos).
The IHT also has better survivabilty to a bren gun carrier, and IHTs can actually suppress enemy units.
So why does the infantry halftrack cost less than a bren gun carrier? Not only is it better in every possible way, the weapons the infantry in it cary are much more powerful than their brittish counterparts(2 shreks as opposed to 2 PIATs, for instance).

I understand the IHT is a mainline tool for the PE - you can have 6 of them! But when they're combined with a wehrmacht grenadier double shrecker reinforcement, they become just too powerful - and the fact no men in the grenadier squad die when the halftrack explodes means they're the ultimate clown car. I'm not asking for a boost to the bren gun carrier(though it's price is simply idiotic), or for a price increase for the IHT, i'm asking to re-instate the high casualty rates the halftrack and the bren had previously.

The PE could also use a huge buff to the Infantry support P4, and maybe a popcap reduction on the marder to 6, but that's to be covered in different threads.

[DuckOfDoom]

<snip>

I think its fine as it is, I have no problems dealing with clown cars usually. I either button it or shoot it with the Cromwell until it dies and then comedy flank speed run over the disembarking shreks. 

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[MannfredvonRitter]

<snip>

I lost 1 man in both of the clowncars of mine you blew up ^^

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[TheDeadlyShoe]

I think the current high price of transports compensates for the low casualties suffered on death.

Good points about the Brens, though.

[Scrubs]

Same here, Duck. They're quite easy to kill, even with barebones infantry. Sure, their speedy and kill tanks when they have AT infantry inside. But, that IS what they're created for. Sure, they're borderline OP with Wher grens inside, but they're a simple counter. And, they're simple to counter. Plus, their survivability is so freaking low, any PE player will attest, they die very quickly to AT Infantry, heck, PIATs kill them in what? 3, 4 shots?

I'm a brit Player, and I actually like the clown cars, I usually get them quite quickly, button + Piats, and boom, you kill whatever was inside. They're weaker and more frail than a MG42, and the MMG and brens can easily take on 2 of them at once, if you get right down to it. (AP Rounds AND Button? While the other is a transport for British Infantry, which are arguably slower and need the transport more, supply and demand, after all.)

The difference really lies in their use. The Infantry Halftrack is supposed to be a combat weapon, used for firesupport as well as transporting mobs of infantry, while the Bren is simply a transport for once slow British infantry. Admittedly, they're not as useful now, as british has a normal walk speed, but, I bet creative players can find interesting uses for them, and their price isn't that hideous for their effectiveness.

[Mysthalin_Axis]

You both imply clown car IHTs are easy to counter with bren blobs, however not everyone does that, and not everyone should. Saying it's easy to counter under certain circumstances is not really all that viable, especially since noone will even come near your bren blob with dual shrek clowncars for a very simple reason - it's irrational to do that. If your enemy does that - he's not playing very well at all. And even if he DOES do that, he'll just walk away with the shreks once the IHT dies, due to the obscenely low casualty rate when the IHT dies.
Saying you can hammer at the IHT with the cromwell and then run over the guys that survive isn't entirely right either - the IHT can outrun the cromwell and just pop shots into him. There's no need to unload the shreks - you're much more likely to die if you unload than to die if you stay in the IHT with the shreks. If you manage to kill the IHT with a cromwell before your cromwell dies, however, the guys that pop out of the IHT won't get crushed - they spread out upon halftrack death meaning they don't mob up to get insta-crushed by the cromwell, and can then keep pebbling away at the cromwell till it's death.

[Scrubs]

True, but that's like saying Ostwinds shouldn't go after Fireflies. A brit player SHOULD go after them, they've got effective counters, just like the HT+Shrek Combo is a good counter to cromwells and armor. I mean, sure, they're not "fair" but, I mean, I don't see how they unbalance the game enough. They're just a good counter. (I find it wierd that I'm standing up for those bastard PE players!)

I mean, if you kill the HT, usually they loose a man or two, or (i'm not totally certain) they become suppressed (someone check that?). Either way, they're infantry are easy pickings, even if they have AI inside (such as knight's cross). I think the real issue you're having is that you're attempting to compare something totally wrong, like Cromwell vs Wher Shreks in a ATHT, which... are a counter to the cromwell. It's like like saying Paper is OP because it beats rock.

[GefreiterHummel]

they are weaaaak

[brn4meplz]

My opening call in for my Wher. Defensive doctrine

3x Infantry HT's
 Grens w/ double schrek
Grens w/ Double LMG's
Officer
Pio w/ Flame

( I couldn't afford the fuel cost on another flammenwerfer so i made a ghetto flammenwerfer)

It is deadly effective. It has instant suppress and pinn not even a full burst after that, it kills rangers very quickly and it drives circles around AT guns, If i get a road bonus. It trashes british blobs. and it destroys any medium armour. the only thing that concerns me with it is Churchill crocs but even then i can avoid the flame and stay at range. It's pretty normal as far as munitions goes for opening call ins and it puts a hole through any defensive line. If i could take more then 3 as Wehr I would replace all my HMG's but 2 with them. yes they do have weak health and armour but their strengths more then make up for it.

[Smokaz]

Bren carrier is not inferior to anything. It has button. If you are afraid of it exploding and losing guys then exit the men from it. I dont think PE needs any nerfs to the infantry halftrack if we want them to become competitive.

[Mysthalin_Axis]

Bren carrier is not inferior to anything. It has button. If you are afraid of it exploding and losing guys then exit the men from it. I dont think PE needs any nerfs to the infantry halftrack if we want them to become competitive.

Standard bren carrier does NOT have button.
If you want button, you give up on being able to carry stuff, and you pay extra for it.

The problem is that it's BENEFICIAL to NOT exit a halftrack/bren carrier as it's about to explode, as the splash damage when you're leaving the halftrack would kill most of your squad, whereas you are only able to lose 1 guy if you stay inside the halftrack(the casualty rate limmits the ammount of deaths when a halftrack dies to 25 percent. So you would only lose 2 guys if you had 2 squads in the halftrack. You might not even lose a single guy).


The problem is, scrubs, is that you're not going to catch up with an infantry halftrack with your infantry, whereas the infantry halftrack WILL catch your cromwell. The only really mobile and reliable AT the brits have is the tetrarch(doctrinal) and fireflies(expensive). Both these two, and the cromwell, will die not be able to finish off the double-shrek squad even if they somehow manage to kill the infantry halftrack. The IHT double-shrek clowncar is actually extremely powerful versus the firefly, due to it having only 450 health, as oposed to the standard 636 of shermans and cromwells. 2 Volleys will be a definite kill.

[Smokaz]

Standard infantry halftrack doesnt come with LMG grens or shreks inside it either. Also, one guy from each squad will die if the infantry halftrack is sniped. It never hurts to have a recon squad or a sniper around.

[Mysthalin_Axis]

You can pop in a double shrecker into an IHT with a reinforcement.
You can't pop in a PIAT into an MMG, no matter how many reinforcements you get.
Invalid argument there.

Recon Squads are at an availability of 2, cost 5 popcap to field, and are very vulnearable(due to not being able to cloak and having inferior weapons to vanilla tommies). An IHT only loses 2 guys to a sniping when there are two squads inside - noone will use 2 squads in an IHT if it's meant for dual shrek clown-car'ing. Snipers are not a brittish unit, and are at an availability of 1. IHTs are at an availability of 6, and can insta-gib a sniper rather effectively.

[AmPM]

So you whining has nothing to do with the IHT, and everything to do with Double Schrek grens? What about tank hunter PE with dual Schreks, thats their job, to shoot from a fast moving HT to kill tanks.

Its the PE's only source of mobile AT since a Marder really does need to lock down.

[eliw00d]

As far as I am aware, the casualty rates have not been changed. Perhaps luck or the randomness of it just hasn't been in your favor?

[MannfredvonRitter]

Although I understand how frustrating it is to be clown car'd.

There are similar levels of frustration from tetrachs, which perform in a similar capacity, highly fast, guaranteed penetration, micro'ing your tank to death. Tetrach's also drop from behind....oh the amount of times my 88 has died due to truck death just before completion from a tetrach.

Anyways, where was I? ?
The reason the clown car shrecks have become more and more common for PE is due to the lack of alternate AT.  Marders die easily from everything and are useful in specific circumstances, Panthers take so much fuel that other sources of AT become unavailable. All we're left with is the clown car. The lack of AT is desperate enough for PE, that there is a resurgence of Panzerfausts on luftwaffe in reprisal to it. The clown car is (ultimately) just a response to the AT problem of PE. I fear that if it's nerfed, the faction will become uncompetitive.

[Mysthalin]

As far as I am aware, the casualty rates have not been changed. Perhaps luck or the randomness of it just hasn't been in your favor?

They have changed the casualty rate to 10-25 percent to match US/Wehr HTs, when it used to be 50-60 on the inf HT(as far as I know) - unless they did a revert without informing anyone.

@ AmPm - utilizing the word "whining" instantly negates all and any of your arguments in my eyes, so please refrain from using it, as it's nothing more than an ad hominem.

I understand the PE's lack of mobile AT, and it should be adressed, but not by maintaining only 1 mega effective unit, but by buffing the alternatives. Be it marder/hetzer cost, or the PIVIS getting good penetration values, or the PE shrek gaining a price reduction/damage increase.

It is not the grenadiers with the double shrek that's the problem - it's the fact that if they stay in the halftrack when it's at low health, they don't get any drawbacks to it - it's beneficial for them to stay in the halftrack until it's death.

[AmPM]

Give me back group Zeal so I can get close enough to things to kill them, and I will drop the HTs for more men.

Other than that, PE really need to be able to fight from the IHT effectively to be competitive, second, since there is no tech tree and there is a pile of AT on field at all times, they would be useless if they killed off 50% of your squad when it died.

And yes, you are just whining. How about you keep units on your flanks to protect your tanks?

[MannfredvonRitter]

I understand Mysthalin's point, but to be honest the only way I could fight as PE was with the halftracks. I tried other approachs and they all fail as PE, even the halftrack option is very challenging. To be honest I think that if the IHT is nerfed, the entire faction will begin to fail epically, sadly.

I understand his point, ultimately I would say a squad will die in say 4-5 shots from a cromwell/sherman. If you mount it in an IHT it now survives an extra 2-3 shots, for a total of 6-8 hits. It's a big boost in survivability, which has been 'exploited' (not in the illegal/bad sense) to counter weaknesses of the PE. If this is nerfed (which 50% will badly do) then the Marders and other AT options need to be boosted to counter for that.

MvR

[Baine]

Infantry in IHT is like Brits grouping (see how i didn't call it blobbing ) all their shit together.
That's how shit works best for these factions atm.