[CW]The problems of Brits

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[Mysthalin_Axis]

Like the PE, they don't have reliable break through capabilties. Both these factions need either reinforcements from the other armies, have another player in their team of the different faction, or be playing versus each other(pure brits vs pure PE) to be effective.

=BRITS=
The cromwell is rather unreliable vs infantry, always hit by shreks(and I mean always), and not able to crush the infantry due to the instant-stop should it run over a guy. Flank speed helps GTFO or GTFI the battle to defeat or run away from a pak or P4(circlestrafe possible with flank speed, however prone to failure due to cromwell turret rotation speed sucking).

The Stuart is just not worth it - 2 shrek shots gib it and hit it very consistently, not to mention paks, so the slim chance of gibbing a blob with a canister round is very poor. Only time I had a stuart that pulled it's weight was when the enemy units were concentrating on a cromwell and churchill that were also in the engagement. 1 Ostwind > 2 stuarts, easily.

PIATs - inconsistent accuracy, however very very fun when blobbed up. Too bad they're so vulnearable to everything and anything that as much as coughs their way. That said, ambushing a sniper is great, so is defeating an enemy blob with a 12 PIAT barrage.

Bren Gun Carrier(non MMG) - way overpriced, way slow, way low HP, way low damage. No reason to buy this unit, because if anything shoots the bren gun carrier while a unit is in it, the guys inside die(P4 shot equals half dead sapper squad inside).

Fireflies - rather extreme cost, made up for it by just as extreme range and penetration. Could be a VERY useful asset if it had anything resembling a fire rate that is at least a bit more common that complete lunar eclipses without a command tank. Dies fast if cought up with, good to damage P4s. However, not for the popcap price attached to it, and the insta-gib-ability paks have versus it.

Cromwell Command Tank - most use in it comes from the creeping smoke barrage, good bonuses for the firefly and as a damage shield. If CSB was unlimited uses, cooldown based, would actually be worth the cash. However, I'd rather buy 2 stuarts than this right now. Scratch that, Tetrarch and a Bren MMG.

Bren MMG - good for buttoning, decent anti infantry. Negated by the fact it "OMGWTF?!?!?!" dies to paks almsot instantly, a shrek shot + 2 Kar98 shots is all it takes to kill this baby. Nice support weapon, useful vs PE. Not so much vs wehr.

Tetrarch - the little tank that could. Says it all. Dodges shreks at close range(sometimes), can actually zoom past a pak without taking a shot some times. Can circlestrafe tanks, but very well microed ones is still a tough bunny. Better HP than the stuart(takes 3 shreks to kill it), and actually has damage and penetration to write home about. Better range than a sherman and rather good accuracy versus infantry is really useful, however the targetting tables make sure it will try and kill a pioneer before rear-shotting that 5 HP Tiger ace...

Churchill - about as useful as a Church Hill - takes about as many shots to kill this thing. Nothing more than a damage sponge that can't fire back properly(even though do both things better than the CCT, the much larger cost and popcap strain don't really make it worth it). Think of it as the failed version of the KT the allies have.

Churchill AVRE - the funfunfun tank. If you ever wanted a StuH that can rape even more - this is exactly it. Paks are a bitch vs this, though. Every blobbers worst nightmare, extremely good to open up an assault route vs that HMG... Low popcap cost makes sure it's fieldable and that you can use it as a support weapon properly.

Churchill Croc - the best breakthrough unit the brits can get. Likes to rape blobs, and sometimes shoot at tanks. Detests paks, at least until it gets close enough. Appropriate pricing and popcap have made sure it's usefullness is limited. Availability issue - as in you have none in supply, and need to pay PPs for your first one.

Emplacements - 20 second build time and actually not insta-dieing to mortars has made these semi-useful. Semi-useful as in "omfg expensive" and "we can't cancels mid-building or we retreatz noez :O"

Machine Gun Emplacement - With the extreme cost reduction that's hit this baby, I think we'll actually be seeing some of these things on the field! Probably not a game turning unit, but at the late-game stage, when there's just a few infantry guys running around, all tanks and arty dead... This just might be the killing blow you need(or that last nail in the coffin when you got majority map control)

Mortar Emplacement - being as expensive as a wehr mortar, this baby has a 20 second build, 10 second pack-up time, as well as much lower range. It is also insta-gibbed by pretty much anything ranging from shreks to MP44s. It lacks the ability to out-atrition, or to deploy as a quick response unit. Very non-cost-efficient. Needs supercharge to become seen at all on the battlefield. Recent pricechange helped this baby by a bit, but until v0.0.4 comes out, I don't think we're gonna see much of these. They're being worked on, is all I can say.

Bofors - expensive as hell, availability prevents you from getting many(not that you would want them). Bane to every PE player, manages to damage tanks somewhat. Not that good versus infantry due to rather low accuracy vs them and low ROF. Not exactly worth the cost, but could help defend a position. That is, if you ever pushed through enough enemy territory to need to build defences.

17 Pounder - best penetrating AT gun in the game, don't think anything can stop it's shell. Good damage as well. Extreme price, extreme price for AP rounds and only 1 use on them. Very controversy unit - it could be VERY useful, or it could epically fail and strain you on 175 munitions... Entirely up to the player to buy it, but for somethign that costs so much more than a pak, it's far from being as powerful. Has the dreaded flame weakness, the dreaded mortar weakness, the dreaded shrek weaknes, the dreaded paks can snipe it like no tommorow weakness.... Well, it's very situational, and not worth it. Recent pricechange altered this rather significantly, but PIATs have made too much a home in my heart.

25 Pounder - Good thing it's not doctrinal, and that it costs only as much as 3 stuarts(fuel wise), it's about as effective as they are(no canister). Uber short range retained from vCoH make sure you're not gonna use this unless your tank availability is at max, and you don't want stuarts. And you DON'T want stuarts. Recent changes to it makes sure it costs quite a bit less, but with a severe drawback - you can't rebuild it anymore! That is a very huge nerf for it, and I think the unit is much less viable than before.

Expert engineers - not worth it seeing as the sapper repair rate is good enough as is - better get either absolutely nothing or MOAR PIATS!

Rifle Nades - sheer epic shot from something resembling a stick. The high cost made sure it's not OP. Boy did it make sure it's not OP. Smoke is nice, though. Probably the best upgrade in the brittish arsenal, save for LJA on the tettie and flank speed on cromwell.

Bren gun upgrade - buttoning is overrated, the DPS is quite cool. I'd rather more riflenades, in most cases - they got smoke! But, KCH detest these things.

CCS - Seeing as the triage center costs quite a bit more than this, and that this doesn't cost POP to field, I'd say the CCS is pretty damn nice! The healing aura range is very large, and the only drawback is the fact the healing is tied to a cooldown. I personaly believe the cooldown could be decreased by around 30 seconds, but it's good!

Commandos - cost more than KCH, about half as useful. Low health, bad armor type, losing out to stormies 1v1 at close range(non upgraded). Delivered by glider, their smoke is cool when it can be used in conjunction with a nade and doesn't take 10 hours to recharge(and is free now). Demo charge useless, should be useable everywhere, not like the engineer demo(especialy for 80 munitions). Recent price change has made them just a bit more viable... but not by much.

Commando HMG - cool, could use being able to smoke-cloaked while still set up to be able to escape tanks properly. Still, very useful unit.

Commando mortar - second most useful unit in the commando tree, right after the tetrarch. Could use being able to smoke-cloak while set up, as well. Maybe some extra damage, but it's a very nice unit as is.

Commando PIATs - useless for their cost. You pay more manpower and more munitions, for less men and weaker platform than sappers. Sappers can (OMG!) at least cloak in cover! Not only that, but they can actually heal the real AT unit you're using as the commando doctrine - the tetrarch. Commando PIATs can use smoke camo, but that's (Very) temporary, and can in no way be more efficient than a sapper squad at combat : they die just as fast to small arms - even faster, actually, due to 3 men as opposed to 4. Time to half their cost - both muni and manpower for them to come even NEAR cost effectiveness. Even in vCoH they cost less than sappers, and they don't pay muni for their PIATs. Here they cost 5 less MP, 15 more muni, than sapper PIATs. They're still really useless, even for their current cost. Maybe in groups of over 9000 they could be useful, but they cost too much to do that - sappers can just do it better.

Recon tommies - rather useful unit - only unit in the brittish army to not have eye problems and actually be able to see there's a big huge tank moving up 45 metres ahead. Designate marksman is useful, however doesn't help vs MGs that much due to omfg suppressed. Best used in conjunction with a rifle smoking in order to be able to GTFO after the deed is done. Availability cap at 2 is pretty severe on these guys, could use alleviation.

Captain - haven't utilised this as much as I could have, partly due to the fact a lieutenant can have heroic charge and that's what I'd use my popcap on instead. Aura effect is quite useful, doesn't help much on the offense, though. Could use a cooldown decrease effect on 25 pdrs, when in the same sector, maybe?

Lieutenant - the highest casualty rate wielding unit in the brittish army. Dies almost every game - it doesn't even need to be used agresively/stupidly to die, he just likes dieing for some reason. Tends to do a lot to make up for his cost, though, and his aura bonus is what helps him die so much, I guess. Very useful unit, heroic charge could use cooldown increase + slowdown effect takeaway, maybe? I like it as is, but the HC is a bit too often - I can understand the axis players.

Priest - Inaccurate, slow, high popcap tie up, awesome MG. It's a howitzer on wheels, and it's better than the 25 pounder. To be honest, the Churchill AVRE is a much more viable solution - it at least hits pinpoint accurately, often, and can kill stuff in buildings. Seldom useful, but I guess it can't be changed by much.

Main problem with brits is they can't counter mortars and snipers without a massive armor rush to kill either(and both unreliably). Heck, they can't break through at all, other than(Very) massed arms. Perhaps a smoke ability on both their mortars could help by just a bit? I know for certain I'd have used it a lot to help my cromwells dodge at least ONE shrek shot at max range while charging an entrenched wehr position... Anyways, fact is, brits need a lot of work, and quite some love(and some hate at some points) to become viable. A 2 wehr vs 2 brit matchup is pretty much insta-lose for the brittish, even more so if an urban map is played. Outmortared, out HMGed, out armored, the brits die painfully slowly, yet consistently. At least they get that short spark of joy as their AVRE instagibs a squad, a PIAT squad ambushes a sniper, or 5 tetrarchs land behind enemy lines to finish off a KT... And no, bren carrier clowncar dieing with it's whole "garrison" doesn't spark joy. At all.

Apparently, the post can not handle the PE being incorporated into it right now.
Posting PE in a seperate thread, mods may move it back into this one with the PE analysis as the second post, if they wish(and I'd apreciate it).

[Tymathee]

a lil too much on the "omg wtf" side otherwise well written and documents a lot of issues i've stated myself about the brits. Some stuff is overpriced and other stuff is dead on. The Stuart, Commando Piat, commando mortar, command hmg all need a price nerf as they're too expensive comparatively to their allied counterpart.

Recon tommies one shot officers and prolly kch too :-D

command + lt + rangers = pwn city

[Khorney]

they don't 1 shot KCH, and due to the buggyness in which such abilities are used in the engine (such as stickies etc..) by the time the squad has been standing still long enough its already lost 2 or 3 men, essentially crippling it. i only use the ability on targets that can't really shoot back (shrek squads etc..) and thats more in a griefing capacity than any useful deployment

[sgMisten]

Cromwell: Should be about equal to a stock sherman and pz4, but it does seem to have some issues that make it less accurate against infantry and more prone to being shrekked.

Stuart: Don't find it worth it either due to its frailness and lack of oomph.

PIATs: Poor AT, keep missing. On some occasions though I have seen it used decently, primarily due to PIAT ambush, even mid combat. However, unlike RRs or Shrecks it usually cannot deal a killing blow.

Fireflies: I think they are alright, just need to be treated as a tank sniper.

CCT: Extra micro makes it a bit harder to use. But some Brits like Victortarget seem to get good use out of it.

Bren MMG: Button and good suppression. But yes it dies fast to shrecks and any AT. It's a problem that carries over from vCoH, combat vehicles that are available early with no AT on enemy team, so they are good. EiR, AT is everywhere. This same issue plagues PE too, to a greater extent.

Tetarch: Yea, seeing you use Tets, no complaints there.

Churchill: Failed version of KT. I like that description. It's more expensive than a cromwell too.

AVRE: Never used it in EiR:R, no comment.

Churchill Croc: Great breakthrough tank yes. Only comment is that with its slow speed, it's also the one heavy tank that will nearly always die and lose you PPs. The others are fast enough to escape. KT doesn't fear other heavy tanks and has lots of HP so even though its slow it shouldn't die as often if you commit to pulling it out.

Emplacements: Shorter build time made them much more viable. The incin weapons still kill the crew inside rather fast though. Mortar barrage on an emplacement is also a death sentence, if you unpack the crew, it may die to a mortar shell when they unpack. If you leave the emplacement there, it will die. Tricky.

25 pounder: Yea short range makes it vulnerable. I think the mortar emplacement and 25 pounder will get supercharge as doctrinal ability, to make them viable. Supercharge mortar pit will change dynamics a lot. But its not in yet.

Expert Engies: I think it's ok.

Rifle nades: It's ok.

Bren gun: The buttoning is very useful. Any AT nearby and that tank is in serious trouble.

CCS: This costs 100 mun. Triage is 180 mun now. The cooldown does make it tricky to use, forcing Brits to blob healing and abandoning defensive positions to get the most out of it.

Commandos/variants: Don't use in EiR:R, no comment.

Recon section: Good scout, but the sniping ability is no where near as effective as a real sniper, and also CD. The snipe really ought to have a longer range so they can snipe a MG safely.

Captain: He makes a difference, just that the extra micro and pop cap makes him harder to use. The healing ability is nice but very slow, almost negligible though. But defensive buff is noticeable.

LT: Yea good. Converts Brit blob into doom blob when used right.

[gamesguy1]

Cromwell: Should be about equal to a stock sherman and pz4, but it does seem to have some issues that make it less accurate against infantry and more prone to being shrekked.

Sherman can bounce paks and shreks occasionally, cromwell cannot.

The big difference is that the cromwell has .5 moving accuracy multiplier, compared to .75 for virtually every other tank in the game.  Tanks always need to be moving to kite, hence the cromwell sucks.

It also has the worst armor of all the medium tanks and its gun has the same penetration as the 75mm sherman gun, so it cannot win against even a half dead p4.

[SaintPauli]

One of the problems with British pricing is the command units (Fireflies fire 66% faster, Emplacements gets 100% extra health, units get 75% less suppression and fire up…). At the same time the command units promotes bloobing and discourages mixing of tanks and infantry. The problem gets even worse with the reinforcements. It will be much easier to balance the British fraction if these units were removed.

Alternately these units can be given other functions than the aura buff or, I the case of the lieutenant, be permanently attached to a single unit.

[Mysthalin_Axis]

You're not going to be able to utilise the captain's 75 less suppresion aura effect on the assault, where you really need it. HC is tied to a single unit(lieutenant) that is very fragile, and comes with a very severe drawback.
Fireflies have the longest reload time of any gun in the game - the 66 faster fire rate, believe me, only makes it seem like it's firing half-decently.
The brits blob because that's all they can do - it's not because the command units make them OP, it's because almost nothing else the brits could use is VIABLE.

[SaintPauli]

Fireflies have the longest reload time of any gun in the game - the 66 faster fire rate, believe me, only makes it seem like it's firing half-decently.
The brits blob because that's all they can do - it's not because the command units make them OP, it's because almost nothing else the brits could use is VIABLE.

At long range it fires faster than a sherman. At long range with a v2 command tank it fires every 3½ seconds...

[Mgallun74]

Fireflies have the longest reload time of any gun in the game - the 66 faster fire rate, believe me, only makes it seem like it's firing half-decently.
The brits blob because that's all they can do - it's not because the command units make them OP, it's because almost nothing else the brits could use is VIABLE.

At long range it fires faster than a sherman. At long range with a v2 command tank it fires every 3½ seconds...

ouch...

[Mysthalin_Axis]

And V2 command tanks are so common. And both of these units don't die to a single shrek... Nor are they succeptible to pak-hunting.
At long range it doesn't fire faster than a sherman, without a CCT.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

It does actually, but only slightly. And keeping units at long range is difficult, since the medium range is pretty large and getting vision at max range is difficult and expensive in terms of spotter units.

 I'm not sure how the reloading handles range changes in any case.

[sgMisten]

Seems like a major contributor to these issues is the vCoH concept of tying a lot of effectiveness of Brits to [1] strong emplacements/trenches and [2] to LT, Captain, CCT command units.

Emplacements are iffy here until some kind of doctrinal buff comes in (like royal engineers emplacement hp+).

Command units are trickier to use because you need to spend extra micro on them. But if you can micro them you get a boost. So does that mean that stock british units are somehow compensated 'weaker' to make up for having command units as part of brit design concept?

If having 'normalised' brit unit effectiveness + command units = very strong, then should we take this as an imbalance or the specialty of the Brits?

[MannfredvonRitter]

One of the biggest problems of the British is the same as that of the Panzer Elite.

Pop efficiency.

It costs too much to do what other faction do.

You need a leuitenant to even have a viable squad and that's 3+5 population. You don't tend to 'recover' from this investment, until you have 3 squads usually. Which means a total of 18 pop for viable anti infantry. Wehrmacht can achieve a similar level with just two squads of grenadiers for 10 pop. Americans two squads of rangers.

The PE and Brit are just population expensive, which is why they are capable at later stages (albeit lesser than their allies) but incapable especially in early stages, how often do you see PE or Brit lose at the start, compared to their effectiveness later on?

British AT and PE AT both cost well over 10 pop for viable and versatile AT options. This again leads them to be highly vulnerable to a concentration of forces of either slant, tank or infantry. Their issues are further exacerbated in the reinforcements game mode, where it is impossible to get support from an ally. These issues have resulted also in the whole Piat blob at start (4-5 piat squads anyone?).

The British only really need one buff in my opinion which will drastically change their fortunes.

Make the 17 pounder slow and mobile (slower than an ATG) this supports their standard weakness of a low speed, but gives them mobile AT options. Make the 17 pounder weak (it has no shield when in 'mobile' mode) when moving and more hardy when deployed in its traditional way. Virtually all of the british issues are caused by this one vital weakness, they just can't fight tanks. The PE weakness is similar, they can't fight tanks at low population levels. To fix their issue reduce the population of the marder to 4. I think that all issues existing with both factions will be reduced once this has been done, or possibly nearly eliminated. On the British, I would argue to make all emplacements mobile and see how that works. To compensate, make them very slow in move mode.

[Malevolence]

You need a leuitenant to even have a viable squad and that's 3+5 population. You don't tend to 'recover' from this investment, until you have 3 squads usually. Which means a total of 18 pop for viable anti infantry. Wehrmacht can achieve a similar level with just two squads of grenadiers for 10 pop. Americans two squads of rangers.

Already, there's a few problems I see here, I think. I'll use list format to save time

1) You don't need a lieutenant to have a "viable squad". They have excellent durability, average movement speed, and above average infantry shredder/support weaponry upgrades. The lieutenant provides a nice buff if, say, you have no upgrades on your tommies, but with upgrades you don't even need a lieutenant at all. I take them anyway because it makes my horde blob of doom annihilate everything, but it'd still do just fine without one.

2) Yes, Wehrmacht grenadiers are of comparable effectiveness to un-LT'd tommies. Tommies do better with weapon upgrades, grens do better without them.

3) However, comparing mainline infantry to RANGERS is a huge non-sequitor! Doctrinal elite infantry is not a basic infantry unit for the American side! Compared to riflemen, the appropriate comparison, tommies are generally superior but more expensive. Just like they are against every other kind of basic infantry - superior when well equipped, but very expensive.

4) Finally, what arbitrary assignment gave 3 squads as the optimal number to use with a lieutenant? I use two squads with a lieutenant, either two rifle nades or a rifle grenade and a bren gun squad, and they do just fine often racking up a half dozen kills each or more. The Lieutenant generally gets his beret shot off sooner or later, but oh well that's life and he gave his INSANE buffs to damage and accuracy for probably quite some time.

The PE and Brit are just population expensive, which is why they are capable at later stages (albeit lesser than their allies) but incapable especially in early stages, how often do you see PE or Brit lose at the start, compared to their effectiveness later on?

Can't say about PE, but Brit's starting problem is not necessarily lack of population, but rather lack of mobile anti-tank assets. When you can get bum rushed and annihilated by a puma or two, flamenwerfer halftrack, p4, stug, stuh et c. because your primary anti-tank measures are mounted A) to a 14 pop tank or B) to an immobile, very long setup time unit. I solve this to some extent by bringing along a Cromwell. It's not the best AT in the world, but it'll keep light tanks and vehicles off of my infantry just fine.

British AT and PE AT both cost well over 10 pop for viable and versatile AT options. This again leads them to be highly vulnerable to a concentration of forces of either slant, tank or infantry. Their issues are further exacerbated in the reinforcements game mode, where it is impossible to get support from an ally. These issues have resulted also in the whole Piat blob at start (4-5 piat squads anyone?).

A 17 lber is 4 pop + 1 for setup, a marder was 8 last I looked. AT Halftrack can function as makeshift AT for 3 pop, schreks and piats (less effective admittedly, especially the piats) are both 4 pop a piece, if I remember right. Admittedly "viable and versatile" is not really a 17 lber emplacement, but this is a team game - emplace it right and it'll serve just fine. If you're the first one on, find a spot, lay it down, hole up for 3 minutes. Again I don't play PE, so my solutions are not as readily available, but a single marder or a schrek in a halftrack should do you alright in terms of AT unless it's like a dual m8 start or something. Or you're against Smokaz and his hilarious starts, but then again unorthodox starts almost always beat orthodox starting calls...

The British only really need one buff in my opinion which will drastically change their fortunes.

Make the 17 pounder slow and mobile (slower than an ATG) this supports their standard weakness of a low speed, but gives them mobile AT options. Make the 17 pounder weak (it has no shield when in 'mobile' mode) when moving and more hardy when deployed in its traditional way. Virtually all of the british issues are caused by this one vital weakness, they just can't fight tanks.

Now this I don't believe is true. Through combination of light and medium armor with supporting weapons like the 17 lber and bren button/piat, it is not terribly difficult for the brits to beat enemy tanks. Mobile 17 lber is an interesting idea, but I don't see a real reason for it - Brit AT is a bit less mobile, but a bit tougher, play it to your advantage based on its strengths. Not every faction has every angle covered so learn to exploit the strengths to cover the weakness. It took me a long time to adjust to brits in EiR:R, and they're still a bit prone to spectacular failure, but they're also prone to brilliant success so I'm gonna have to say that they're fine in the AT department, at least more or less so that some tweaks to numbers couldn't fix.

The PE weakness is similar, they can't fight tanks at low population levels. To fix their issue reduce the population of the marder to 4. I think that all issues existing with both factions will be reduced once this has been done, or possibly nearly eliminated. On the British, I would argue to make all emplacements mobile and see how that works. To compensate, make them very slow in move mode.

4 pop marder? Bit too low for something that avoids a lot of disadvantages traditional AT guns have. If we lower it I'd say 6 or so (it's on 8 now, right? I think? Again, PE =/= me) at LEAST - AT gun immune(ish) to small arms fire with hyper speed and uber sight should not be the same as a 57mm.

[MannfredvonRitter]

1. Fight Wehrmacht infantry without a lieutenant and see how effective your British infantry are. You will get out attritioned far faster than they will, even if your units did cost the same. Or fight FJ which have a similar cost, in fact I can't be bothered looking atm but I think they're 40mu more than rifle nades and 10mp or so cheaper. And if you think they aren't used mainline there are a lot of companies that use them in that way.

3. RANGERS to MAINLINE infantry. It was an analysis which showed how much power others could get into the same population. Rangers are hardly doctrinal now, everyone can get at least two squads and indeed many do. Fact is, it's not about doctrines or not, it's about who can get what, at what pop. British get less.

4. I used 3 squads as this is the more common number used that I have seen in opponents and allies British armies, the benefits of the lieutenant grow with squad number, the more you have the greater the benefit. Considering many british starts are pure infantry I'm sure i'm not far off of the mark here.

5. I would like to see you play PE. If you bring a marder at the start you're toast. Enough AT to defeat tanks (without reinforcements) will cost you at least 12 pop and that AT could very easily lose to a sherman. Perhaps you get a single shreck and an ATHT, I would like to see that kill a sherman of a competent player. So you'll be going for two TB squads and an ATHT for a total of 11-13 pop. Either way inefficient pop-usage. Your ATHT can snipe infantyr, but BAR's rape it, Bazookas slaughter it etc etc etc. It's useful in a supplementary role, but that's it.

6. The Marder hardly avoids the disadvantages of traditional AT guns, even if it does it receives a bunch of disadvantages that are far worse.
The front of an ATG/Pak is very difficult to damage the crew from. You have to go behind it, i.e. close range. You can snipe a marder from 60 range with an ATG and rape it. You can kill Marders with bazookas, tanks (yes the thing its sposed to hunt), piats, BARs from behind etc etc etc. Exchanging one set of weaknesses of weaknesses which are more detrimental to its performance is hardly advantageous. The +5 sight range of the marder is completely worthless and non eventful, made a crappy unit even more crap, it used to be +20 which had its uses, 5 sight is pointless. May as well give Klaus a teddy bear.

Check out the PE players company builds, see how many of them make reasonable usage of Marders anymore. Maybe 1-2 no more.

7. I did mention a mobile 17pndr. There are clearly issues, it's all over the forum, although you seem to feel inclined to scream l2p at every British player(or at least insinuate as such in your usual condescending and insulting tone), the feeling about their weakness is mutual on the forum as seen by numerous posts by both skilled and new players and also evidenced by the win/loss ratings of various factions compared to one another.

This is a nice little chart for who is awesome and who not, I did a quick estimate from what I remember seems to be average win/loss ratings for good players, it varies a bit but its roughly accurate:
Wehrmacht: 4:1
American: 2:1
Panzer Elite: 1.5:1
British: 3:2

[Mysthalin]

I currently have 20 wins, 25 losses, 15 draws on my brittish account. Playing mostly double brits vs double wehr, that's actually rather decent, IMO.

[BigDick]

2) Yes, Wehrmacht grenadiers are of comparable effectiveness to un-LT'd tommies. Tommies do better with weapon upgrades, grens do better without them.

depends on the range

3) However, comparing mainline infantry to RANGERS is a huge non-sequitor! Doctrinal elite infantry is not a basic infantry unit for the American side! Compared to riflemen, the appropriate comparison, tommies are generally superior but more expensive. Just like they are against every other kind of basic infantry - superior when well equipped, but very expensive.

rangers are by far the best elite infantry and imho imba

decent health, elite armor, many people in a squad, assault guns that absolute rape and they don't loose firepower when loosing men because 6 dudes, verry hard to stop (fireup), good vet (and easy to get vet onto them), good mobile AT..very pop efficient to use rangers with thomson nades and bazookas in start platoon (much munition but many counters)
 

Can't say about PE, but Brit's starting problem is not necessarily lack of population, but rather lack of mobile anti-tank assets. When you can get bum rushed and annihilated by a puma or two, flamenwerfer halftrack, p4, stug, stuh et c. because your primary anti-tank measures are mounted A) to a 14 pop tank or B) to an immobile, very long setup time unit. I solve this to some extent by bringing along a Cromwell. It's not the best AT in the world, but it'll keep light tanks and vehicles off of my infantry just fine.

...

A 17 lber is 4 pop + 1 for setup, a marder was 8 last I looked. AT Halftrack can function as makeshift AT for 3 pop, schreks and piats (less effective admittedly, especially the piats) are both 4 pop a piece, if I remember right. ......Again I don't play PE, so my solutions are not as readily available, but a single marder or a schrek in a halftrack should do you alright in terms of AT unless it's like a dual m8 start or something. Or you're against Smokaz and his hilarious starts, but then again unorthodox starts almost always beat orthodox starting calls...

you will fail with a single marder and you will fail with a shrek squad...you will even fail with 2 shrek squads....you need at least a marder+shreks>=12pop or a hetzer+shreks>=14pop or 2 marders=16pop or 3 shreck squads>=12pop

The PE weakness is similar, they can't fight tanks at low population levels. To fix their issue reduce the population of the marder to 4. I think that all issues existing with both factions will be reduced once this has been done, or possibly nearly eliminated. On the British, I would argue to make all emplacements mobile and see how that works. To compensate, make them very slow in move mode.

4 pop marder? Bit too low for something that avoids a lot of disadvantages traditional AT guns have. If we lower it I'd say 6 or so (it's on 8 now, right? I think? Again, PE =/= me) at LEAST - AT gun immune(ish) to small arms fire with hyper speed and uber sight should not be the same as a 57mm.

PE AT gun is NOT immune to small arms...and it dies from 2 AT gun shots (that near never miss) and it has a smaller range...
and one marder without any other AT is NOT enough because it cannot do anything

5. I would like to see you play PE. If you bring a marder at the start you're toast. Enough AT to defeat tanks (without reinforcements) will cost you at least 12 pop and that AT could very easily lose to a sherman. Perhaps you get a single shreck and an ATHT, I would like to see that kill a sherman of a competent player. So you'll be going for two TB squads and an ATHT for a total of 11-13 pop. Either way inefficient pop-usage. Your ATHT can snipe infantyr, but BAR's rape it, Bazookas slaughter it etc etc etc. It's useful in a supplementary role, but that's it.

6. The Marder hardly avoids the disadvantages of traditional AT guns, even if it does it receives a bunch of disadvantages that are far worse.
The front of an ATG/Pak is very difficult to damage the crew from. You have to go behind it, i.e. close range. You can snipe a marder from 60 range with an ATG and rape it. You can kill Marders with bazookas, tanks (yes the thing its sposed to hunt), piats, BARs from behind etc etc etc. Exchanging one set of weaknesses of weaknesses which are more detrimental to its performance is hardly advantageous. The +5 sight range of the marder is completely worthless and non eventful, made a crappy unit even more crap, it used to be +20 which had its uses, 5 sight is pointless. May as well give Klaus a teddy bear.

indeed

marder without other AT to support = toast
locked down marder = toast (AT guns are worst nightmare)
marder getting rushed by most kinds of infantry (since PE has no supression) = toast

PE without wehrmachtplayer or wehrmacht reinforcements+luck = toast

[sgMisten]

Still waiting for your PE analysis Mysthalin

[Mysthalin]

Working on it mate ^^.

[CafeMilani]

elite gren should make some analisys or maybe smokaz or other experienced CoH players who know stats, things about mechanics and game design.

Cleaned -Das.

srsly it nice that ur going to great lengths, i hold this in high regard and dont wanna insult or hurt u.

and: PE = toast