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[Sixpack]

omg, the americans have two units that are better than wehr so we must nerf them!!!

Of course not mentioning that the wehr have SEVERAL units that have NO counter-part on the american side. then there's these units that are better than their "counter part"

gren > rifle
w mortar > a mortar
w hmg > a hmg
pio > engie (pios can build bunkers and have 35 more health)
panter > m10 (both tank destroyers)
tiger > pershing
king tiger > pershing

i dont think i need to go on, but juts say.....

In case you that was a reply to my reply:

a) I never said what you are wording for me, I merely pointed out that there are more than two units which in MY opinion are better than their counterparts. Though I do not know what the wehr counterpart for the Calliope should be.

b) Your argumentation is flawed, as has been pointed out by BigDick (though he realy likes to bring in real life performance for games  ) and to just use what you think is nice and works for your way of argumentation, well, check out how the Elefant (!) actually performed while it was called Ferdinand.
The Marder and Firefly were tank destroyers and the Wolverine IRL is infantry fodder (open topped, missing MG crappy armor, you could toss out some nades.....), a Pzkpfwg II could eat its side armor.
And just because you can run over INF so easily in CoH doesn´t mean it would work IRL. (using to much real life stuff blahblah...)

c) Nice poster, you should become a politician. Trying to Defamate (hope I got that word right) your oponent like that just shows that you are walking on thin ice and try to let me look bad.


To acker:

in a 1on1 situation the riflemen will usually win. In an engagement it is a matter of how your units of choice work together.
And you can say that the unit you see more of is usually the better one (more allied snipers than axis --> allied sniper is more usefull, more MG42s then Cal. 30s --> MG42 more usefull).

I have taken out more allied tanks with 57mms then with paks. (I simply suck using the pak38.....).

[sgMisten]

I have taken out more allied tanks with 57mms then with paks. (I simply suck using the pak38.....).

That is interesting.

Without the cloak, the Pak38 and 57mm have the exact same field of fire, exact same range, almost exactly the same DPS (Pak38 faster shots lower damage vs 57mm slower shots higher damage but both come to about 150 damage per 3.5 seconds).

Seems like the pak cloak is making you move the pak 38 too slowly. Try uncloaking your pak38 and using it like a 57mm, then you ought to have the same results with the pak38 as you do the 57mm.

[Wolster1]

If it isnt the elitist snobs that suck the enjoyment out of this mod its the Axis whiners, i think all the adjustments seem just fine, well done team, about time the playing field got a little leveling out.

Never new how brave my fellow countrymen were taking on Axis heavy armour with piats till my recent atempts at playing British, heat seeking schrecks needed the the adjustment ( if you dont think so your opinion is just some biased load of mumbo jumbo i want to win all the time without the enemy having the capability of really beating me back shit - ie very childlike)

[acker]

To acker:

in a 1on1 situation the riflemen will usually win. In an engagement it is a matter of how your units of choice work together.
And you can say that the unit you see more of is usually the better one (more allied snipers than axis --> allied sniper is more usefull, more MG42s then Cal. 30s --> MG42 more usefull).

I have taken out more allied tanks with 57mms then with paks. (I simply suck using the pak38.....).

I cannot agree with your rifle comment. Volks will outattrition rifles at long range. And, since there is always something thirty units out of your LOS, closing the distance against Volks is generally a bad idea. Unless you have a Jeep or another scout unit to verify what's behind the fog of war...but that's combined arms. Which units have already been discussed.

In general, it comes down to who has the better cover, or better tactics (for instance, running around buildings, hogging the sandbags, etc). And, with upgrades, the situation reverses...Volks have to close, rifles have to kite.


I have no comment to your Pak reference.

[gamesguy1]

yeah...

M10
"Er besaß außerdem kein MG und war somit eventuellen Infanterieangriffen schutzlos ausgeliefert"

he had no mg and was fucked against infantry attacks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M10_Wolverine

Secondary
armament .50 cal Browning M2HB machine gun
300 rounds

Also its main gun had HE rounds for killing infantry.  BigDick not knowing wtf hes talking about, big shocker. 

And if you want to argue real life the main US tank destroyer in 1944/45 isnt the M10, was was obsolete before normandy invasion, its the M36 jackson, which was armed with a freaking 90mm pershing gun.

Or the M18 hellcat, which was a dedicated tank destroyer that only had the sherman 76mm gun, but performed extremely well due to its speed and manuverability.   For example

The M18 served primarily in Western Europe, but was also present in the Pacific.

On September 19, 1944, in the Nancy Bridgehead near Arracourt, France, the 704th Tank Destroyer Battalion was attached to the 4th Armored Division. Lt. Edwin Leiper led one M18 platoon of C Company to Rechicourt-la-Petite, on the way to Moncourt. He saw a German tank gun muzzle appearing out of the fog 30 feet away, and deployed his platoon. After five minutes, five German tanks of the 113 Panzer Brigade were knocked out, with the loss of one M18. The platoon remained in their position and destroyed a further ten German tanks, with the loss of another two M18s. One of the platoon's M18s, commanded by Sgt Henry R. Hartman, knocked out six of these and lived to fight another day. Most of the German tanks were Panthers.[2]

The M18 Hellcat was a key element during World War II in the Battle of the Bulge.[3] The 705th Tank Destroyer Battalion was attached to the 101st Airborne Division in Bastogne. By the end of the battle, the 705th had destroyed 43 German tanks, with the loss of only 6 of their Hellcats.[4]

[gamesguy1]

Allied Sniper > Axis Sniper

Err no?   Axis sniper has better vet(self heal at vet 1 is so good) and fires significantly faster.   Allied sniper gets to shoot at smaller axis squads, but both PE and wehr has good sniper counters.   The axis sniper has to shoot bigger allied squads, but Brits have basically no real sniper counter.   In addition, the wehr sniper kills 3 man weapon teams much faster than the American sniper, and its better at countersniping as well due to the faster rof.

Riflemen > Volks (matter of opinion for some)

This point would be valid if Wehr didn't get grens as well.   I'd much rather have 8 grens and 8 volks to mix and match however I want than 12 rifles.

And a properly handled 57mm is a real pain, I d take them over paks (2 of them made a realy easy victory )

Pak is superior to the 57mm in every way.   Even without the cloak, the pak slightly outdamages the 57mm, and both have the same arc of fire, range, hp, penetration, etc.  With the cloak the pak becomes godly.

[Smokaz]

Axis sniper has some accuracy problems and the countersniping thing is a pain in the ass with him, but these are isolated problems on the he is worth it and a very good unit to have..

[Malevolence]

I'd say the allied sniper is a tiny bit better myself, but they're both about even at doing what they do. Sniper vs sniper the allied one is better far and away, but the axis one is better at killing troops, but again the allied one has less to shoot...

[Sixpack]

I cannot agree with your rifle comment. Volks will outattrition rifles at long range. And, since there is always something thirty units out of your LOS, closing the distance against Volks is generally a bad idea. Unless you have a Jeep or another scout unit to verify what's behind the fog of war...but that's combined arms. Which units have already been discussed.

In general, it comes down to who has the better cover, or better tactics (for instance, running around buildings, hogging the sandbags, etc). And, with upgrades, the situation reverses...Volks have to close, rifles have to kite.

Now we are getting here, combined arms

Which is the most played gametype immo (guess it´s still R+)?

What does this gamemode make different?
Far more fluid war with a lot of mobile warfare and shifting fronts thus making proper fronts more difficult. (Units will work alone and separated, happens all the time)

Scouting has become very important (even more) then before to have an intel advantage (I´d like to rant a lil bout fireup here but that won´t get this forward).

Volks is best used defensivly (with K98 or Mp40 doesn´t matter, they are a defensive unit with skirmishing capability).
Rilfemen can be used offensivly and defensivly, furthermore their upgrades increase their capabilitys in BOTH areas and can be used as push unit.

(This is where Grenadiers come in to the play but considering their upgrades make them more stationary they are just more axis defensiv units for the meatgrinder where the allied meat tries to clog up the axis grinder).

Now, if your riflemen engage a volkssquad at long range, without upgrades, why don t you move up your MG next to the riflemen and thus forcing the axis player to
a) charge and die or
b)give up ground?

(axis mortar obviously? )

But if the volkssquad and your riflemen are upgraded the volks have lost already, no matter what:
In a longrange duel the BARs will outattrition the MP40, if the volks charge the BARs you will just hit supress and lough all the way to the bank.

Seems like I have been up too long and this all will probably make no sense, sry bout that...

Your summary is point on though


To gamesguy1: thy for replaying, just a lil late on my post
and
M10

http://data.primeportal.net/tanks/adam_vukich/m10_wolverine/M10_Wolverine_01.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/M10-wolverine-camp-carson.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/M10_destroyer_du_8e_RCA,_Illhauesern_1.JPG/300px-M10_destroyer_du_8e_RCA,_Illhauesern_1.JPG

http://armor.kiev.ua/wiki/images/d/db/M10_Tank_Destroyer.JPG
http://www.tankdestroyersociety.com/images/M10_05.jpg

Some photos with and without the .50 Cal. But I can tell you: I wouldn´t try to man that and shoot enemy infantry.
You obviously always have the right rounds loaded to engage inf or tanks........

M36 Jackson is
a) not in the game
b) was only succesfull in the normandy bocage area (just like the M10) thanks to concealment and short range firefights
Their performance dropped later on and size isn´t everything ^.^ .

M18:
Another nice tank for the shoot and scoot tactic, it is a do or die Tank Hunter like the rest of them.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

There's no difference between reinforcements and other game modes past the first four minutes.  (Or eight.)

[sgMisten]

There's no difference between reinforcements and other game modes past the first four minutes.  (Or eight.)

The difference lies in the battle lines. In an attack/defend mode, defenders will start with most of the map and can focus on defensive weaponry. (atgs, mgs etc, even TTs, wire)

In R mode, it becomes a meeting engagement. Depending on how well the initial players do, the battle lines will be in flux, with no territory advantage to either side. If both players are particularly aggressive, bloody, or crazy, then no battle lines will be drawn and the whole game will be one entire mass of back and forth of units with bigger and bigger cannons drawn and more and more units joining in the ogre of destruction.

[acker]

But if the volkssquad and your riflemen are upgraded the volks have lost already, no matter what:
In a longrange duel the BARs will outattrition the MP40, if the volks charge the BARs you will just hit supress and lough all the way to the bank.

To gamesguy1: thy for replaying, just a lil late on my post
and
M10

http://data.primeportal.net/tanks/adam_vukich/m10_wolverine/M10_Wolverine_01.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/M10-wolverine-camp-carson.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/M10_destroyer_du_8e_RCA,_Illhauesern_1.JPG/300px-M10_destroyer_du_8e_RCA,_Illhauesern_1.JPG

http://armor.kiev.ua/wiki/images/d/db/M10_Tank_Destroyer.JPG
http://www.tankdestroyersociety.com/images/M10_05.jpg

Some photos with and without the .50 Cal. But I can tell you: I wouldn´t try to man that and shoot enemy infantry.
You obviously always have the right rounds loaded to engage inf or tanks........

M36 Jackson is
a) not in the game
b) was only succesfull in the normandy bocage area (just like the M10) thanks to concealment and short range firefights
Their performance dropped later on and size isn´t everything ^.^ .

M18:
Another nice tank for the shoot and scoot tactic, it is a do or die Tank Hunter like the rest of them.

On MP40 volks and BAR rifles: once again, it comes down to usage. BAR rifles will always beat MP40 volks at long range. But if you can close fast enough with the volksgrenadiers, the rifles melt like butter. I don't think that suppression can save rifles if the Volks immediately get into short range, using terrain. Though Assault might be a better investment against BAR rifles, if you can get it...MP40 volks would probably be better off fighting AB or something.


On the .50 cal: it doesn't matter if you use ball, AP, of API on infantry. Anything that the .50 cal launches is going to annihilate enemy infantry forces for obvious reasons. The .50 cal cannot penetrate any German tank of the time period stated. It can only penetrate armored cars and halftracks...and any ammo the .50 cal uses is sufficient to put a world of hurt onto said vehicles. Of course, AP and API would do the job most effectively.

Most tank crews actually fought with the commander cupola open. This was for two reasons. Firstly, a buttoned-up tank has a very restricted FOV, and is therefore vulnerable to enemy AT. Secondly, the commander's cupola allows the tank crew to navigate more effectively (once again due to the increased FOV). In short, it was actually safer to fight with the tank hatch open than it was to fight buttoned down. And the .50 cal gives the tank commander instant AI/LAT power when he needs it...important against enemy AT or even AI elements, to say the least. Few enemy infantryman fired back at two-thirds-concealed men firing rounds big enough to rip off limbs. You might not want to man that, but tankers certainly would. Barring extenuating circumstances.

The M36 Jackson was not successful in the bocage for one tiny reason...THE M36 ARRIVED IN EUROPE IN SEPTEMBER. GET YOUR BLOODY FACTS RIGHT. The M36 mounts a 90mm gun, which could penetrate a Tiger I from the front at 1000 meters. The HVAP ammo was even more effective. The M36 was used in the the Lorraine Campaign, the Ardennes Offensive, and the Rhine Campaigns with great effectiveness against German heavy armor due to these reasons.

All US tank destroyers fall into the "mobile" defense category; they have the capability to knock out enemy armor and are mobile, but are lightly armored. This allows US TDs to hit enemy armor, and relocate rapidly...certainly not the "do or die" mentality expressed in most video games. Since pretty much all tank armor was vulnerable to heavy guns like 90mm, 76mm, 75mm HV, 88mm, or 128mm, light armor made sense; whoever shoots first wins. The German TDs like the JagdPanther, with heavy armor, limited (if any) turret traverse, and lesser mobility, were designed to "shoot it out" with enemy vehicles or die trying.

[Mysthalin]

run STOP REALISM:
writeln "STOP REALISM DISCUSSION";
wait 5 seconds;
writeln "CHECK ORIGINAL POST";
wait 5 seconds;
writeln "have a good day";
wait 5 seconds;
end.

Guys, in real life the Panther was an MBT capable of taking out both infantry and tanks.
In COH the Panther is a heavy tank that shits on every other tank it meets, while getting raped by infantry, hence in CoH terms it's a tank destroyer, while being not that in real life.
REAL LIFE HAS NO PLACE IN BALANCE ARGUMENTS!!!!
Return to original topic!
Thank you.

[Sixpack]

a)On MP40 volks and BAR rifles: once again, it comes down to usage. BAR rifles will always beat MP40 volks at long range. But if you can close fast enough with the volksgrenadiers, the rifles melt like butter. I don't think that suppression can save rifles if the Volks immediately get into short range, using terrain. Though Assault might be a better investment against BAR rifles, if you can get it...MP40 volks would probably be better off fighting AB or something.


b)On the .50 cal: it doesn't matter if you use ball, AP, of API on infantry. Anything that the .50 cal launches is going to annihilate enemy infantry forces for obvious reasons. The .50 cal cannot penetrate any German tank of the time period stated. It can only penetrate armored cars and halftracks...and any ammo the .50 cal uses is sufficient to put a world of hurt onto said vehicles. Of course, AP and API would do the job most effectively.

c)Most tank crews actually fought with the commander cupola open. This was for two reasons. Firstly, a buttoned-up tank has a very restricted FOV, and is therefore vulnerable to enemy AT. Secondly, the commander's cupola allows the tank crew to navigate more effectively (once again due to the increased FOV). In short, it was actually safer to fight with the tank hatch open than it was to fight buttoned down. And the .50 cal gives the tank commander instant AI/LAT power when he needs it...important against enemy AT or even AI elements, to say the least. Few enemy infantryman fired back at two-thirds-concealed men firing rounds big enough to rip off limbs. You might not want to man that, but tankers certainly would. Barring extenuating circumstances.

d)The M36 Jackson was not successful in the bocage for one tiny reason...THE M36 ARRIVED IN EUROPE IN SEPTEMBER. GET YOUR BLOODY FACTS RIGHT. The M36 mounts a 90mm gun, which could penetrate a Tiger I from the front at 1000 meters. The HVAP ammo was even more effective. The M36 was used in the the Lorraine Campaign, the Ardennes Offensive, and the Rhine Campaigns with great effectiveness against German heavy armor due to these reasons.

e)All US tank destroyers fall into the "mobile" defense category; they have the capability to knock out enemy armor and are mobile, but are lightly armored. This allows US TDs to hit enemy armor, and relocate rapidly...certainly not the "do or die" mentality expressed in most video games. Since pretty much all tank armor was vulnerable to heavy guns like 90mm, 76mm, 75mm HV, 88mm, or 128mm, light armor made sense; whoever shoots first wins. The German TDs like the JagdPanther, with heavy armor, limited (if any) turret traverse, and lesser mobility, were designed to "shoot it out" with enemy vehicles or die trying.

a) You are too kind to the Volks, in your case it will be a matter of skill which decides the batte.
b) Damn, I knew it, wasn´t talking about the .50 AP rounds, I was talking about the M10s 3inch cannon (should have said he or at....)
c) I would like some intel on those assumptions (pls not kelly....)
d) My bad about the bocage area but just throwing in those stats won´t help if I just counter with things like: Tiger invulnerability angle (45 degrees makes at rounds hate tigers), Pzgr. 40, HEAT shell.
Also I never said that the M36 is bad, but far more efficient if used concealed and at close range to make sure it is a killerblow.
e) I did mention that they use a shoot and scoot tactic, but as soon as your tank is located retaliation comes fast and swift if you couldn´t take out the enemy armour it is pretty easy to loose that TD. (Can´t find that pretty nice stuff where I got some nice info about the M10/36......)

[SaintPauli]

Err no?   Axis sniper has better vet(self heal at vet 1 is so good) and fires significantly faster.   Allied sniper gets to shoot at smaller axis squads, but both PE and wehr has good sniper counters.   The axis sniper has to shoot bigger allied squads, but Brits have basically no real sniper counter.   In addition, the wehr sniper kills 3 man weapon teams much faster than the American sniper, and its better at countersniping as well due to the faster rof.

Are you mental? Sniper difference is one of the biggest imbalances at the moment!

If I may pretend to be Nostradamus for a moment then I predict that Draken and Shultz will steamroll all axis forces with heavy weapons support in the upcoming tournament. This is very very hard to counter at the moment due to the sniper.   

[Unkn0wn]

Except there won't be any vet gain in the tournament so the allied - axis sniper 'imbalance' will remain very minimal.

[SaintPauli]

Except there won't be any vet gain in the tournament so the allied - axis sniper 'imbalance' will remain very minimal.

Hmm good point Unknown. Didnt think of that. 

[acker]

a) You are too kind to the Volks, in your case it will be a matter of skill which decides the batte.
b) Damn, I knew it, wasn´t talking about the .50 AP rounds, I was talking about the M10s 3inch cannon (should have said he or at....)
c) I would like some intel on those assumptions (pls not kelly....)
d) My bad about the bocage area but just throwing in those stats won´t help if I just counter with things like: Tiger invulnerability angle (45 degrees makes at rounds hate tigers), Pzgr. 40, HEAT shell.
Also I never said that the M36 is bad, but far more efficient if used concealed and at close range to make sure it is a killerblow.
e) I did mention that they use a shoot and scoot tactic, but as soon as your tank is located retaliation comes fast and swift if you couldn´t take out the enemy armour it is pretty easy to loose that TD. (Can´t find that pretty nice stuff where I got some nice info about the M10/36......)

If you are talking about the M10 76mm cannon, you are even more wrong about your analysis. The M10 was quite commonly used as a SP gun against enemy infantry and fortifications due to its ammunition selection; 60-40% of the stocked ammunition aboard the M10 consisted of WP and HE shells, and the majority of launched shells from the 76mm were...HE! And considering that EVERY TANK IN WWII needed different ammo types for engaging infantry or tanks, I fail to see why you included that.

Your statement about the bocage isn't doesn't even begin to be "my bad". The smallest amount of research could have brought up that fact; You appear to have pulled quite a few statements from Antarctica or something. Your next statement is just as much a non sequitur, and is completely irrelevant to your original point.

Your next statement is off, too. Once your tank is located, "retaliation comes fast and swift"...this is the exact reason why they came up with shoot and scoot, and focused on tank mobility. You want to be able to move so you can withdraw from unfavorable circumstances...hardly the "do or die" mentality you express. If anything, the heavily-armored, low-mobility German TDs like the JagdPanther were "do or die".

Do your own research for once, I'm tired of doing it for you. Another River, Another Town would be a good place to start for a memoir. PM me if you want to continue this elsewhere, and I'll list more when I have the time.