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Author Topic: [PE]The problems of PE  (Read 6863 times)
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Mysthalin_Axis Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 184


« on: March 13, 2009, 03:01:21 pm »

In continuation, and modification, of the Problems of brits and PE thread.
______________
=PE=

Vanilla PG - versatile unit... only in the selection screen. Quite costly for what's basicaly a mix between a wanabe volks and a pioneer, these guys need some loving. They like dieing, they like dieing in flames, they don't like shooting back much. Low availability cap means it's hard to even buy as much as you might semi-like, and they're pretty useless without the G43, which costs a reasonable ammount of muni, but these guys need their armor type changed NOW!

Assault PG - 4 availability cap, cost 110 munitions to field, 135 mun to become actually half-viable. Best used in suicide rushes while in an IHT, but otherwise... I'd buy something else. If there WAS anything else to buy, that is. Maybe 2 G43s? They have an unreasonably high popcap - 5 per squad, when they hardly fit their role properly. With such low an availability cap, I don't think many people would spam them if they had 4 pop for 4 men... Need ability to repair tanks

Tankbusters - good availability cap, bad cost. Their shrek is worse than the wehr counterpart, yet costs just 10 mun less, all while having a much less viable platform on the same popcap cost. Need IHTs to survive long enough to fire off 2 shots, need health increase, change in armor type to infantry, and ability to repair tanks. I mean, they're tankbusters, they gotta know how to fix a tank when knowing how to bust one!

Infantry Halftrack - much better than the bren, needs no change, other than to not be available to wehrmacht forces, at all. Good cost, good availability, good damage abilities and synergy with other units, low health. Needs repair modifiers so that PGs could repair it, effectively.

Scout Car - not that awesome, but useful enough to, well, scout. Gets rather good kills, sometimes, but dies rather often. Mixed feelings about this - good damage shield from AT guns for your halftracks, I guess.

Radio Equiped Scout Car - made of awesome, best triage centre'ish unit in the game for the lowest of costs. Don't think any changes need to be made.

Kettenkrad - price needs to be at 50 manpower, 5 fuel, especialy considering the motorcycle went down to 95 MP 5 Fuel to match it, right now. Even though cloak is useful, it's not implemented, and until it is, this unit should have an appropriate price. Nice 1 popcap cost, terrible pathfinding when up against a jeep.

Armored Car - one of the worst glass cannons in the game, needs a 4 popcap cost, but definately not 6. Dies to almost everything, can't dodge like a puma does, has a decent gun. Should be able to be fielded as support, or to be able to do bumrushes popcap-effectively. It can do neither right now. Resource wise, it costs just about right, maybe the MP is a bit too high? Too low availability cap, however. Should come with overdrive for free.

P4 IST(Ice Tea) - everyone's favorite, or rather, most hated snubnosed tank. Poor range, poor survivability, poor support capabilities. Frankly, costing more than a cromwell(much more) and the same popcap as MBTs, this baby doesn't cut it. It's supposed to be an Infantry Support Tank, not a "I eats popcapz yay!" unit, and it should NOT have a 260 fuel price attached to it! Keep the manpower price, but seriously, it shouldn't cost more fuel than a StuG or Ostwind! Couple all that with obscene drive re-enable times and extremely poor range, noone wants to buy this in it's current form! It can kill light vehicles, but that's seriously not enough - far from it. 8-10 popcap cost to field should be a must on this unit as well.

Marder III - a very great unit, especialy with it's price... The problem is, though, it costs a whooping 8 popcap to field! Even though I personaly love it as a unit, it just fails at doing it's job popcap-efficiently. While most PE players ask for a popcap of 4 on this baby, I personaly believe 6 popcap should be first field-tested, then dropped to 5, and only if the PE still face troubles, to 4.

Panther - awesome unit for the wehrmacht, and a unit that seemingly fits all of the PE's traits - it's fast and hard hitting. Seeing as PE are so fuel intensive, I think this "PE's landmark" unit should cost around 10 percent less than it's wehrmacht equivilent, retaining the same capabilities. Otherwise, as loveable as the Wehr Panther!

Flak 88 - pretty much the same as a wehrmacht flak 88. Can't really say much about this beast, just that.. it's the exact same, and I think it's quite well balanced.

Flakvierling - awesome infantry rapist, especialy with the new low cost! Should preferably have a 30 second build time(if it doesn't already? I am not certain), and is simply awesome for what it can do.

Wirblewind - one huge disapointement, that wasn't too dissapointing due to experiences in vCoH, really. Pretty much a "little bit more DMG, little less suppresion" quad for a much higher price... PE need all the anti-infantry firepower they can get, though, so it's a very nice alternative to the P4 IST. If the Ice tea is buffed, however, this should see quite some love as well.

Hetzer - IMO, very good alternative to the Marder. As vulnearable to AT guns, it's a very nice tank hunter, with an awesome top MG42. Don't think it needs much change, maybe popcap set to 8, just to make the PE players really happy with this guy, and wanting to get him.

JagdPanther - Destined to be Apex's unit by default, this is a unit with awesome front armor, awesome HP and awesome tank hunting capabilities. Too bad it can't really kill infantry well, and costs so much pop to field. Better than a KT, on most accounts. I have mixed feelings about this guy. Hits tetrarchs consistently, though. Don't know what to offer for this thing, other than a slight buff, so people want to use him more.

Hummel - very, very big letdown. Horrible accuracy, no matter what CoH-stats tells you, decent penetration and damage, but still not worth the IMMENSE cost and popcap strain you get when you buy one of these for your company. Mortar halftracks usually get shitloads more kills than this, and that's both on the recieving and using end of this monstrosity. I've once had my blob of PIATs stand right in the middle of a Hummel barage... 3 guys died, I didn't move the blob at all, they were in standard clusterfuck when being idle. Seeing as the Hummel is supposed to be a blob killer, 3 guys out of a 24 guy blob isn't exactly unber anti-blob capabilities. Especialy since I'm certain the hummel was within yellow circle range, and with a spotter.

Mortar HT - awesome unit, not much more to say. Does not need much change, maybe popcap decrease to 5 from 6 would be nice.

Light AT HT - 3 popcap + focus fire = happy joy vs enemy blobs. Just have something keeping the enemy at bay, like G43s or an IST, and it's rather good. Can perform decently vs light vehicles, and treadbreaker is annoying for those that get hit by it, I think it's a rather decent unit. Treadbreaker should cost 70 mun, not 95, tho.

BergeTiger - deception warfare : make the enemy think there's a Tiger on the field, then overwhelm the enemy with infantry units, as this baby rides around laughing. 6 popcap, decent cost, useable in armor pushes as AT guns like to shoot it over any other tank. I personaly never buy it as it's rather slow and just doesn't fit the whole PE theme well.

Luftwaffe Ground Forces - it's what you buy when you're out of munitions, and therefore do not want more vanilla PGs with no upgrades. Useful repair capabilities, decent combat effectiveness, good cost. Do not need much change at all.

FallschirmJaegers - hated by brits for their ability to ambush officers, the FSJ are truelly the hallmark of the PE. Very good unit, FG42 or without, have the second most useless nade of all time(the anti-building nade). Fausting is nice. Overall - good unit, may only be in need of fine-tuning.

Incendiary Grenade - awesome grenade, one of the most useful in the game. If they were made to be unlimited uses for the cost they are now, I think we'd see a lot of happy PE players, and much more use of this awesome upgrade.

Anti-Tank Grenade - 30 munitions? I doubt I'd take them if they were 10 for unlimited uses, noone's using these, and I doubt anyone ever will.

Advanced Repair - 40 munitions is quite sensible, but I doubt many people buy them, I know I don't. PE already spend craploads of muni into getting sufficient(and most of the time, still not enough) anti infantry to buy this. Needs "indirect buffs" in the form of other stuff going down in cost.

G43 - arguably the most useful weapon in the PE arsenal, I love this upgrade, especialy for the cost. Slow could be just a bit more common, but it's still a great upgrade, that actually makes PGs combatworthy.

Extra man - a must, especialy since you have nowhere else to spend the over-flux of manpower you'd be left with without spending PPs... Sensibly priced, I guess.

Anti Building Incendiary Nade - pretty much useless, should come for free like smoke does on commandos. People just don't buy it.

Teller Mines - sheer epic on a stick, especialy for 70 munitions(IIRC). Help PE a lot, however seeing as most of their anti-inf costs Mun, I don't think they're that viable. Seen some people use them extensively.

Mines - pretty much same as wehr mines, no comment, balanced.

Goliath - same as wehr goliath, no comment, balanced.

Panzerfaust on FSJ - should be made available to tankbusters instead of AT nades, as well, to be honest. Otherwise, it's good.

If you read the other post fully, and this one as well, congratulations, you just read 3877 words and 11 pages in font 12 Times New Roman of proof that I have no life. Seriously Sad.
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puddin Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1701



« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2009, 03:10:14 pm »

Mystalin why do you insist on Posting under different names? 

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=8626.msg150474;topicseen#new
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i cant really blame smokaz i mean playing against puddin is like trying to fight off breast cancer. You might win and do it and be a bad ass but you'll feel sick and mutilated forever.

Puddin' spamtm is soulcrushing... what's hard to understand about that?
Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2009, 03:13:25 pm »

Why do you care much? It's not like it's hard to distinguish that was me, and I didn't insult anyone while having swapped names.
The reason I did it, is simple - the Brits analysis part had been done under that username, and I'm not a mod or anything on this account, so I can't edit that username's posts without switching to it. And posting the PE part was merely inertia, sorry if doing that caused any confusion to anyone.
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DasNoob Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3430



« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2009, 03:34:53 pm »

P4IST is so the win.  Dude honestly your assessment is wrong.  Play with it some more, use it to kill infantry, and back it out when you come up against AT and you will see that it is WAY better than an Ostwind or StuH for its role.  Especially with skirts and MG. 

Lock down is GOD!  use it always, but mostly don't get trapped and it will be your new favorite unit.  Oh and those pesky AM and Brit light vehicles... just LOLz at them all day.
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stumpster Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 2197


« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2009, 03:38:18 pm »

Quote
Vanilla PG - versatile unit... only in the selection screen. Quite costly for what's basicaly a mix between a wanabe volks and a pioneer, these guys need some loving. They like dieing, they like dieing in flames, they don't like shooting back much. Low availability cap means it's hard to even buy as much as you might semi-like, and they're pretty useless without the G43, which costs a reasonable ammount of muni, but these guys need their armor type changed NOW!

??

Armor type change?  It hasn't been modified from vCoH.
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Quote
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2009, 03:39:37 pm »

Who said my views are shared by absolutely everone? Wink.
I'm just putting forward what I think needs changing, and why, and I disagree with you by a lot about the ISP. My tetrarchs love eating it when the ISP can't fire fast enough when not locked down, and can't reach it when locked down.

I'm saying they NEED an armor type change to tp_Infantry rather than tp_Soldier Wink.
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stumpster Offline
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Posts: 2197


« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2009, 03:46:22 pm »

You realize that would be a nerf on the larger scale, right?  As an example, take Riflemen.  Currently, with Soldier armor the PE have a .6 damage modifier vs. M1 Garands and a .75 Accuracy modifier/.4 damage modifier vs. BARs.  Compared to regular Infantry armor that takes full damage from Garands and only has a .75 accuracy modifier vs. BARs.

If we changed them to Infantry type instead of soldier, your PzGrens would act like a three or four man Volks squad, believe me, you DO NOT want that.
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Falcon333 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1125


« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2009, 03:48:58 pm »

Radio Equiped Scout Car - best triage centre'ish unit in the game for the lowest of costs. Don't think any changes need to be made.

So it's the best and the cheapest? Isn't that... wrong?
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2009, 03:52:56 pm »

Not really, seeing as it costs popcap to field, and doesn't really have that many targets to heal (I.E motorized army nature of PE). It really isn't OP.
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gamesguy1 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 135


« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2009, 04:15:11 pm »

Agree on most points except the armored car and the mortar HT.

Armored Car does insane amounts of damage, its fast and its cheap, I don't see a problem.  Maybe lower its fuel cost a little bit.

Mortar HT needs a nerf, not a buff.
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acker Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2053


« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2009, 04:17:14 pm »

Not really, seeing as it costs popcap to field, and doesn't really have that many targets to heal (I.E motorized army nature of PE). It really isn't OP.

ALL healing centers require popcap to field. Except for the CCS, which operates on a bloody cooldown...
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gamesguy1 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 135


« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2009, 04:18:40 pm »

Not really, seeing as it costs popcap to field, and doesn't really have that many targets to heal (I.E motorized army nature of PE). It really isn't OP.

ALL healing centers require popcap to field. Except for the CCS, which operates on a bloody cooldown...

The scout car heals pretty slow though, so your infantry actually has to spend a significant amount of time there healing.
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EliteGrens Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 240


« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2009, 04:20:32 pm »

Armored car damage output is insanely LOW.
Its the beta AC, you know that right?
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2009, 04:23:10 pm »

Still, RE Scout Car isn't OP in it's current enviroment, as it has a bloody short range of healing and lower health compared to the other triages Wink. It's still the best tactical value for money, but it's really not OP - considering WHAT it heals(Think a ranger is much more useful than a PG squad).

Mortar HT needs no change, the popcap decrease would only be nice, not a neccesity Wink.

I wasn't aware Tp_Soldier armor helps PGs that much at all - they seem to die very fast to BARs and carbines - much faster than volks. Probably due to much lower squad HP, and it could very well use some addresing in any way possible. They do love to suddenly burst into flames, though.

AC, seeing it rarely kills a guy in a single burst, is hardly very powerful. It's cost is OK, it's the fact it's an availability of 3 is what makes it bad, coupled with a 6 popcap. I've grown to think a KCH squad is much better than an AC, at what they can do for the same popcap.
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gamesguy1 Offline
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Posts: 135


« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2009, 04:31:49 pm »

Armored car damage output is insanely LOW.
Its the beta AC, you know that right?

Beta AC still far outdamages the puma.

The secondary MG is extremely good.

Quote
AC, seeing it rarely kills a guy in a single burst, is hardly very powerful. It's cost is OK, it's the fact it's an availability of 3 is what makes it bad, coupled with a 6 popcap. I've grown to think a KCH squad is much better than an AC, at what they can do for the same popcap.

Nothing kills guys in a single burst unless its a tank.   AC gets you infantry killing power without spending munitions, thats the key to the current light vehicle dominance.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 04:33:24 pm by gamesguy1 » Logged
brn4meplz Offline
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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2009, 04:42:06 pm »

The Values they have for the AC right now are the reduced accuracy ones, Which means it's not hitting everytime like it did in vCoH. BAR'd rifles in cover(light) win against it and brens still rape it while buttoning, PIAT have such a random spread that it's hard to dodge appropriately. There is just so much stuff on the Field in EiR that can fend off/destroy anything with light armour. I tried putting 2 AC's in my company to test drive them but BAR's kept ripping me a new asshole from cover, and I've never seen someone not use cover in EiR. for the 12 popcap 2 AC's cost me I'd rather drop the cost into Pgrens, at least they capture and garrison buildings to prolong their "Shoot at me" use
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2009, 07:03:31 pm »

Quote
Nothing kills guys in a single burst unless its a tank.   AC gets you infantry killing power without spending munitions, thats the key to the current light vehicle dominance.
When did the HMG42 get nerfed to not kill a rifleman in it's first burst?
I somehow see KCH ripping significantly more than 1 guy in a squad per burst, as I do any other STG44 wielding unit.
Thompsons tend to kill a guy every burst, AFAIK.
Is that a bren gun? Why yes it is, it just killed 2-3 volks in one burst because they werent in cover and had 2 lieuts supervising in point blank!
2 vCoH ACs just killed an entire tommy squad in one burst :O.
2 EiRR ACs failed at doing anything in 3 bursts! :O
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gamesguy1 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 135


« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2009, 07:36:35 pm »

Quote
Nothing kills guys in a single burst unless its a tank.   AC gets you infantry killing power without spending munitions, thats the key to the current light vehicle dominance.
When did the HMG42 get nerfed to not kill a rifleman in it's first burst?
I somehow see KCH ripping significantly more than 1 guy in a squad per burst, as I do any other STG44 wielding unit.
Thompsons tend to kill a guy every burst, AFAIK.
Is that a bren gun? Why yes it is, it just killed 2-3 volks in one burst because they werent in cover and had 2 lieuts supervising in point blank!
2 vCoH ACs just killed an entire tommy squad in one burst :O.
2 EiRR ACs failed at doing anything in 3 bursts! :O

Now you're just using pointless subjective examples.

The armored car with its coax MG outdamages all of the above except maybe the KCH.  MG42 does far far less damage than the AC at long range, same with bren gun.

The beta changes to the AC does not primarilly affect tommies, which made your last two examples really hilarious.  They changed the AC's acc modifier from 1.0 to .75 against infantry armor, which is used on American and wehr infantry, Brits and PE has infantry soldier armor which was not affected by the AC change.  They also nerfed the AC a small amount against garrisoned infantry, but thats it.

I dunno about you, but my AC just killed 2 bar rifles and a ranger squad with a berge tiger.  Used the berge to push the infantry around and stop them from firing while the AC raped all three squads in about 30 seconds.
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Smokaz Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 11418



« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2009, 07:47:52 pm »

Thats a pretty silly example, gamesguy.

Anyways, right now the armored car is super hard to balance.. if it got small arms immunity at vet 2 like initially proposed it would be rapesauce, but to this day I have yet to see a vet 2 armored car anyhow.. I was one of the first to shout murder when I saw this idea and I kinda think it would be murder still.

BUT: I shouted murder under the pretense of it having retail AC values for damage. The devs have impletemented the AC with bad veterancy, arguably 1 pop too high popcost and the beta reduction in damage output. ATM its decent but hardly worth the trouble, its just one more soft vehicle to be chewed up by the allied monster like the inf halftracks etc.

Seems like they also borked the veterancy for it again by giving increased penetration if the current veterancy table in the Eir:R manual is right:

Armoured Car (1.0)
1 Received Accuracy 0.8
2 Penetration 1.2
3 Health 1.2

Penetration fails, imo. This is an anti infantry unit. The idea to give it puma armor at vet 2 was ridicolous and was immediatly rejected by the community but perhaps a less resistant armor class could be given to it at vet 2 instead like the armor class for the wehr halftrack or the munitions halftrack, which imo doesnt get raped by infantry but still takes noticeable damage from small arms. Basically meaning that as long as the AC is dealing damage back, small arms is not a cost effective counter to it.

Also, at least one of the veterancy levels (preferably the first) needs to increase its damage. Its a offensive unit, not a damage soak. Hopefully AC will also be targeted by the "reduction in neccessary experience to level up"-buff all "mediocre" units soon will receive by Salan's grace
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 07:54:50 pm by Smokaz » Logged

SlippedHerTheBigOne: big penis puma
SlippedHerTheBigOne: and i have no repairkits
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Malevolence Offline
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Posts: 1871



« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2009, 07:53:07 pm »

I'd say first vet level should be resilience (incoming accuracy works) vet 2 should be damage, and the ultimate reward for getting the armored car all the way to vet 3 would be a small arms resistant (but not proof) armor type.
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