just remove the tiger ace please.

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[Smokaz]

smokaz u say its laughable, "it can only dominate when proper counters are not fielded" and in the next sentence "it needs a cost increase"

Aloha, you might be too dense to understand what I said. It is not contradictory. TA can only dominate when there is not anything to stop it, but it still has STATS that are too good for its cost. A tiger or a jagd can dominate in the same way by power of their unit type which is big fat badass tank, but their stats are not uberpwn. Thats two different things, try to squeeze it into your brain.

Smokaz - you need quite a lot of those "proper counters" to be fielded at the same time for it to be really effectively dealt with, which is the problem.
And as for the stats argument - it was taken out of vCoH - the main reason we're sticking by vCoH for the balance is so that the learning curve is lessened. However, right now...

Oh cry, proper counters is not fielded bohoo. All you need to do is actively spot what he has on the field or have a spy close to his spawn - or just LISTEN for the unit when you have the free time.

Good allied players exploit me not having the right counters all the time. Should I say that the sherman and crocodile is too good when somebody listens to hear if I have any tanks of my own and starts with these two units and barbequeues/shoots up my entire core? When jacks M8 rapes 1 mortar and two mg42s because the p4 cant shoot it, hit it or keep up with its speed the fault was mine for not fielding the proper at. Or when somebody sends a wave of infantry to just sucide on your shreks and paks so his armor can roll over you? Its all examples of someone causing proper counters to not be fielded - its a natural part of the game, we call it being outplayed.

Is there anything on this list of "anti-ace" units which are not normally deployed in a game for other reasons?

- Bren tommies
- Sticky rifles
- At guns

You don't even need to be working together, brits are fielding at gun reinforcements now. Look at pak88's bren button spam. He disables all armor that tries to stand its ground unless hes heavily outnumbered his at support just chews it up.

I think you need a break from the balance forum, Myst. I hear Duck needs input on maps. Maybe get a cold coke from the fridge and just - chill?

[EliteGrens]

^^

[Mysthalin]

you just need 2 brens and 1 ATGun to kill it- sounds easy, doesnt it?

Oh really?
Buttoning does 20 seconds semi-immobility per buttoning so 40 seconds of buttoning a tiger ace( highly unlikely, as you'd have to button it from around a house charge, at which point the TA could fall back behind the house, but lets say you have a retarded enemy).
The Tiger Ace has 1500 HP.
The 57 mm does 150 damage per shot, with a 3.5 reload time. You might have a chance to kill the TA if every single shot penetrated, as you'd shoot 11(maybe even 12!) shots.
The 57 has a penetration value of 0.35 against the tiger - shooting the rear is rather unlikely, as noone charges TAs into AT guns while facing them with the rear. Medium range modifier 0.9, and long range modifier of 0.85. Let's give us the benefit of the doubt that the TA is within medium range(rather unlikely) of the ATG. 0.35 * 0.9 = 0.315 chance to penetrate the tiger at medium range. There's also a medium range accuracy modifier of 0.9, which means the ATG only has the chance to do significant damage 0.9*0.315 = 0.2835. That's 28,35 percent of the time.
So that means, you would need approximately = 1500 / 0.2835 / 150 = 35,27 shots to kill a TA.
In 40 seconds of the TAs downtime, there is no chance you will kill the TA with a single AT gun, not even at medium range.


*sigh* Smoke, I defeated your tiger ace, yes, and we did bring on the right counters to it - I used 2 bren squads, a tetrarch 4 PIAT squads while my ally utilised a firefly and a CCT with that, if you don't remember. Tell me what other tank would have needed that much AT focused on it(aside from a KT, but that can't actually do anything else but die)? I am not even close to actually being angry, smokaz, so I don't believe I need a break at all - however you stating it's both shit and that it needs a cost increase does point out you're a bit mixed up about the unit in yourself.
Also, read what I said - I did not say it's hard to field counters to it at all, or that there's a problem with that.
There's the problem it needs significantly more of those counters for them to be effective - read what I said.

[CafeMilani]

you just need 2 brens and 1 ATGun to kill it- sounds easy, doesnt it?

Oh really?
Buttoning does 20 seconds semi-immobility per buttoning so 40 seconds of buttoning a tiger ace( highly unlikely, as you'd have to button it from around a house charge, at which point the TA could fall back behind the house, but lets say you have a retarded enemy).
The Tiger Ace has 1500 HP.
The 57 mm does 150 damage per shot, with a 3.5 reload time. You might have a chance to kill the TA if every single shot penetrated, as you'd shoot 11(maybe even 12!) shots.
The 57 has a penetration value of 0.35 against the tiger - shooting the rear is rather unlikely, as noone charges TAs into AT guns while facing them with the rear. Medium range modifier 0.9, and long range modifier of 0.85. Let's give us the benefit of the doubt that the TA is within medium range(rather unlikely) of the ATG. 0.35 * 0.9 = 0.315 chance to penetrate the tiger at medium range. There's also a medium range accuracy modifier of 0.9, which means the ATG only has the chance to do significant damage 0.9*0.315 = 0.2835. That's 28,35 percent of the time.
So that means, you would need approximately = 1500 / 0.2835 / 150 = 35,27 shots to kill a TA.
In 40 seconds of the TAs downtime, there is no chance you will kill the TA with a single AT gun, not even at medium range.

guys wait, bigdick will correct the mistakes soon

*sigh* Smoke, I defeated your tiger ace, yes, and we did bring on the right counters to it - I used 2 bren squads, a tetrarch 4 PIAT squads while my ally utilised a firefly and a CCT with that, if you don't remember. Tell me what other tank would have needed that much AT focused on it(aside from a KT, but that can't actually do anything else but die)? I am not even close to actually being angry, smokaz, so I don't believe I need a break at all - however you stating it's both shit and that it needs a cost increase does point out you're a bit mixed up about the unit in yourself.

i bet i didnt take more than 15 seconds to kill it

[BigDick]

And as for the stats argument - it was taken out of vCoH - the main reason we're sticking by vCoH for the balance is so that the learning curve is lessened. However, right now...

how long are you playing CoH?

the KT was allways be meant to be into CoH but it doesnt made it in because of time and they had to raise their minimum system requirements for it....
there is an official statement about that

and pre 1.71 it was like almost blitz VS armor or blitz vs airborne and not terror

until the KT was in most people avoided playing terror

btw: unknown was one of the few players playing massively infantry company in 1v1 1.71 and before
the other played mostly airborne or armor against blitz

[Smokaz]

No the problem is that my neanderthal brain in this cesspool of afflictions is actually able to hold two thoughts at once - that its stats are much better for cost than the other superheavy tanks - BUT that its easy as hell to counter if you know what you are doing. And that AT spam is quite regular for allies to do since almost all their units can double as AT and AI in some way (rifles, tommies, at guns taking down mgs in buildings)

[Mysthalin]

Now whoahshit, the tiger ace is counterable!
Like we didn't say that a thousand times!
Good job, smoke, have a cookie.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

an ACE is just another heavy tank that gets pwned by manpacked AT.

...have you ever actually tried to kill an Ace with manpacked AT? It would take something like 3 or 4 Recoilless Rifle squads to even get in the ballpark of 'pwned', and any TA player worth a damn will just keep backing up and blasting apart paratroopers.  Stickies and Bazookas are hopeless as counters because the TA is too fast.  It's possible to land hits, but you have to get lucky.

In 40 seconds of the TAs downtime, there is no chance you will kill the TA with a single AT gun, not even at medium range.

Yep. A Tiger Ace is absurdly hard to kill. So are the Jagdpanther and King Tiger, but both of these tanks have significant disadvantages.  The Tiger Ace does not.

Even if the TA player fucks up the TA will probably live through the experience. On one memorable occasion I had a TA blunder into my brit blob with 2 brens, 2 PIATs and a stolen shrek. I buttoned the TA and 2 57mms moved up and starting shooting it in the rear armor.  The enemy moved up infantry reinforcements. Neither of my bren squads got their whole button off but they got ~15 seconds each. Most of the 57 shots bounced and the end result was that I lost my entire brit blob and the Tiger took 50-60% HP damage.

BUT that [the Tiger Ace is] easy as hell to counter if you know what you are doing.

if you know what you are doing..?

so you bring out anti armor units

every axis player KNOWS you will do this when you see a Tiger Ace. And they will bring out mortars, machineguns and Paks.  And they will wreck your army as you try to kill the TA.

[Smokaz]

A stats change is ok, as it's stats/viability for price is out of line with the other super-tanks even though its more expensive.

The tiger ace being out line with the other units of its type is a concept you understand when it comes to these tanks but not with the artillery and calliope, or at least not the similarity of. By your previous type of reasoning we should bring all the other super tanks in line with the Tiger Ace as they are "weak and useless" like the Hummel, instad of nerfing the Tiger ace.

As for your example, only the firefly is focused at, sadly. Piats snipe infantry, brens murder infantry, tetrarch.. well you know tetrarch. And the only thing that was over the top dedicated at was the CCT and the firefly which do not exclusively murder the TA it murders everything axis have of tanks when used correctly.

[BigDick]

i bet i didnt take more than 15 seconds to kill it

there are some replays linked of killer344 showing how fast a TA will dies

and we all should remember the death of the first vet3 TA of saint pauli

it was going down in nowtime

(here were bren buttoning and brencarrier buttoning involved too)

i skipped using TA long time ago because its 18 pop at same time on the field consuming most of your fuel and many menpower and 4pp
you will have not much other tanks in this company and your opponents will mark that TA as primary target

in most cases it is going down very quick through buttoning at guns or fireflies
or people are to careful with it and will loose the game because it will be not worth the costs and popcap used

[Pak88mm]

It really sucks honestly,

Fail ACE, Part 1: http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=8578.0
Fail ACE, Part 2: http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=8504.0 (it´s the 2nd replay)
Fail ACEs, Part 3: http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=8370.0
Fail ACEs, Part 4 : http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=8281.0

number 3 is the best replay ever

[stumpster]

I do believe that DeadlyShoe is correct, the Tiger Ace currently doesn't really have a downside even when you consider the costs/population.  However, bear in mind that the largest downside it has (where it lies in the doctrine tree) isn't in the game yet.  The TA is a T4, and like vEIR you can only have a single T4.  So, would you take the ability to purchase a Tiger Ace over something like German Steel?

[Tymathee]

yea, so i guess when docs and stuff are in, you wont see as many tiger aces and if you do, you'll have either your own powerful unit or some powerful upgrade to battle it???

[DasNoob]

You are correct sir.

[wildfire444]

until then, sucks for allies if they dont have a firefly out.

[boobaka]

why don't u just let the TA be on its own? if u don't attack it, it will just be 18 pop doing nothing on the field. attack were the TA is not and have 2 57mm to supor the attack from behind. that way you still have a good chance to win and the TA will be killed a piece at the time.

i do understand the need or want to kill the 1500 hp TA there on the spot but u can't always get what u want can u? it is the same as u wanting to win the game out right but you need to kill of 2 players or cap enough of the map to do so.

i do have problems with the TA when i play allied and i do have problems with the TA as axis. not confronting the problem head on is sometimes another way to it.

[wildfire444]

it's very hard to kill a (competent) TA with 2 57's and supporting armor because the 57's can't cloak or hold fire...so you get maybe 1 or 2 shots off before the TA backs away to a repair bunker and pretends that 7% damage even happened. someone who really knows how to use a TA, you have to gangbang the fuck out of it and hope there arent any atht to kill your plans.

[boobaka]

TA with repair bunker 20 pop doing nothing for 5 to 10 min i don't have a problem with that. Do you?

[sgMisten]

TA with repair bunker 20 pop doing nothing for 5 to 10 min i don't have a problem with that. Do you?

That's how axis with TA lose their games. Too much pop in 1 unit being repaired, not enough pop available to fight for pop cap, get outnumbered and then lose.

It's when axis gets 50% of the map, call in a TA at 30-35 pop cap, that the TA gets really scary. It's a lot more effective in 3v3 as well, since 1 TA can shift from front to front, and it going to get repaired gives a smaller pop hit than a comparable 2v2.

However, the pop cap hit issue is applicable to all heavy tanks with high pop cap. The point here is that, compared with the other heavy tanks, the Panther, Tiger I, King Tiger and Pershing, the Tiger Ace is a lot more effective than any of them.

Panther - Speed, Anti-Tank (2)
Tiger I - Anti-Tank, Anti-Inf (2)
Pershing - Anti-Tank, Anti-Inf (2)
King Tiger - Anti-Tank, somewhat Anti-Inf, High health (3)
Tiger Ace - Anti-Tank, Anti-Inf, High health, Speed (4)

And the Tiger Ace is actually a little bit cheaper than the King Tiger, with reference to Unknown's post.

[boobaka]

the KT cost 20 manpower and the TA cost 20 more fuel!

I am not saying the TA is not good. but it is not exactly user friendly. to get your TA to 10 percent hp or get it of map with less than 20 inf and 3-4 tank kills is going to loss you the game.

by the way i have not seen many people use the TA succesfully lately.

PS. DEV said the TA will be T4 later so the problem will be even smaller at that time.