Hummel idea

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[31stPzGren]

Acker, read the entire thread. I have stated earlier with regards to cooldown clearly.

Your "alternatives" for balancing this ability just states making it a "tier" ability. It can be a first tier ability for all we know and that is hardly a concept of balance. That was your only "alternative" as well as not describing in detail how it can be unbalanced, stating it obviously isn't.

For a 50 munition cost, it DOES NOT buy back if it doesn't kill the ATG/MG/Mortar and that is assuming that terrain, cover and a multitude of other silly things don't interfere with the damage.

It can always be recrewed and the hummel itself consumes popcap, manpower and fuel to deploy.

"Buggers" refer to the Hummel, which we all know is overpriced at the moment.

On a more serious note, I wasn't aware that the Calliope instantly wiped out full squads. I was always under the impression that it fired a couple dozen rockets with a four-second start-stop motion, not counting flight time or animation. Like the other rocket-based artillery weapons, except more so. Though I suppose it should happen frequently against wounded squads, with the dancing effect the rockets do with their splash...but it sure as hell isn't a guaranteed KO on a full MG or mortar squad at all ranges, nor in the FOW.

Go use the calliope more.

Edit: T4 Inf Arty was even more imba than this. First round drops in 1-1.5 sec. It seems funny that not much axis player whined about it, even though it had 4 uses.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Support teams are not the only consideration. A precision shot would be instant death to 105mms, as if the Hummel was not strong enough against them already.

Any experienced user of artillery would also be able to land shots on infantry and armor, which is especially a concern given the Hummel's high damage to armor.

Justifying a precision shot by the Calliope is silly, especially given all the complaining people do about the Calliope.  And no, the Calliope never has guaranteed kill on anything.

Edit: T4 Inf Arty was even more imba than this. First round drops in 1-1.5 sec. It seems funny that not much axis player whined about it, even though it had 4 uses.

Are you kidding? People whined like crazy. And for good reason.  Just look at the complaining about FOO.

My apologies in advance to OMG. I didn't know they had it. I just thought I'd had a sick idea on how to carry something like Sector Arty over to EiR and fix the Hummel in one go.

'Precision' artillery in one guise or another has debated since the original doctrine list. Don't worry about it

[gamesguy2]

Hummel does 300 damage on a direct hit, which is sufficient to destroy any support weapon in the game barring emplacements, thus no recrew possible.

There is no way a perfect accuracy no smoke warning arty shot is balanced.   There is a reason offmaps drop smoke, while onmaps have terrible accuracy.

Go use the calliope more.

Calliope isn't guaranted to destroy anything.  I've had a calliope aimed at a couple of infantry squads kill nothing, and against a calliope you always have the oppurtunity to retreat with infantry.

Edit: T4 Inf Arty was even more imba than this. First round drops in 1-1.5 sec. It seems funny that not much axis player whined about it, even though it had 4 uses.

MI+rocket arty was much more powerful than the T4 inf arty.

In addition, people didn't bother with support vet back then, we accepted that support weapons don't vet. 

The stupid bloody AVRE already does this, so go and cry somewhere else. Now you will experience what the other side already does. Enjoy.

The AVRE is worthless.  The fact that you even brought it up shows your ignorance of Brits.

It has 35 range, so it has to drive its slow ass into visual range.   Then it has to aim the stupid cannon for like 3 seconds before it can fire.   If you can't get away from a slow short ranged tank slowly aiming its doom cannon at you, you deserved to lose that unit.

[31stPzGren]

Hummel does 300 damage on a direct hit, which is sufficient to destroy any support weapon in the game barring emplacements, thus no recrew possible.

There is no way a perfect accuracy no smoke warning arty shot is balanced.   There is a reason offmaps drop smoke, while onmaps have terrible accuracy.

Fair enough but neither do Calliopes drop smoke. Although T4 Inf Arty drops smoke, the rounds come as a barrage and with a close spread, it more than annihilates the weapon support team.

At most make it an ability that can only be used with something like an artillery observer then. This unit can serve like a cloak spotter (picture 2 PzG w/ only Kar98) which can detect cloaked units and see slightly further than normal.

Calliope isn't guaranted to destroy anything.  I've had a calliope aimed at a couple of infantry squads kill nothing, and against a calliope you always have the oppurtunity to retreat with infantry.

While this is true, it can be reused over and over and over again. The round in question, can only be used ONCE at a 50 munition cost... bear in mind the cost as well for purchasing the platform to fire this round in the first place.

In addition, people didn't bother with support vet back then, we accepted that support weapons don't vet. 

Do the same opinion on support weapons still stand? If so, then it shouldn't be a problem to have this ability.

[Smokaz]

Precision shot for artillery - Horrible idea, and it already shows how people are willing to make compromise on the precision of the precision shot because it would be too powerful. "I paid 100 munitions to be able to instakill any unit you have with almost 99% chance of success".

From my personal experience this seems to be key to accuracy with your artillery:

- Line of sight for the ENTIRE duration of the barrage
- Range (the shorter the better, preferable within yellow range)

1. Scout
2. Spot
3. Fire
4. Pull back scout

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Creeping Barrage is a 150 mun 1 use ability that is much less useful than a Precision Shot would be.  Although I'm beginning to think it costs too much anyway.

T4 infantry artillery isn't in EIR anymore, and word is that new doctrines will never be as powerful as old doctrines.   So we really shouldn't take that as a gold standard.

P.S. - The AVRE shell, while destructive, is only sort of comparable to artillery. Aside from the weakneses Gamesguy noted, it has poor AOE accuracy which means anything outside the direct hit has a good chance to survive.   This is especially the case for AT guns - if the AVRE shell doesn't hit directly, the AT gun will usually survive..even if the thing is in the shell crater!

Even the StuH has 100% AOE accuracy.

[31stPzGren]

Bear in mind that Hummel, is about the only thing the PE got that has a remote chance of breaking through a heavily fortified position.

[MannfredvonRitter]

AVRE does 500 damage stock.

Has higher armour than a hummel by far, second best/best armour the allies have and a reasonable health total, getting its shot off isn't too hard. It instagibs HMG's before they can get out often, infantry on foot are another story however.

Worth noting that the AVRE has 100% penetration on even the jagpanther but suffers from a damage modifier, heh. I used it and found it to be a really powerful weapon in many situations.

Gamesguy, let's not have another flamewar? Please try and be more polite.

[gamesguy2]

AVRE does 500 damage stock.

Has higher armour than a hummel by far, second best/best armour the allies have and a reasonable health total, getting its shot off isn't too hard. It instagibs HMG's before they can get out often, infantry on foot are another story however.

Garrisoned HMGs have additional sight, if you didn't see the slow AVRE crawling into weapons range its your own damn fault.   

It has better armor than the hummel.  So what?  It has 35 range, the hummel has 250 range.   The stuh has better armor than the priest and you don't see people whining to buff the priest because the stuh has better armor.

Your comparison is completely and utterly inane.

Worth noting that the AVRE has 100% penetration on even the jagpanther but suffers from a damage modifier, heh. I used it and found it to be a really powerful weapon in many situations.

It also has a .25 damage modifier, so even if it hits, it does a mighty 125 damage.  My vet 3 hummel takes over half the hp of a churchill on a direct hit. 

Gamesguy, let's not have another flamewar? Please try and be more polite.

You continously attack me in every thread and then pretend to be the victim.  I'm sick of it.  Now I'm just going to state my opinion whenever you make up bullshit arguments like you just did.

You claim in every thread regarding PE how much you play Brits, but you have never posted a replay of you playing allies ever.   I'm frankly sick of you pretending to be impartial when you are probably one of the most biased players in this community.  All anyone ever see you do is play PE.  You are a hypocrite and a liar, and everytime you lie, I'm going to call you on it.

The ironic thing is if you actually played Brits there would've been many overpowered things you could've used as a counterpoint to the hummel.  Instead you pick the one of the only Brit units that are quite worthless and claim its superior to a hummel, quite possibly the best PE unit in the game.

[gamesguy2]

Bear in mind that Hummel, is about the only thing the PE got that has a remote chance of breaking through a heavily fortified position.

You could actually use goliaths.  I've seen them used with very good effect against fortified positions.

Put them on a road and they drive at bike speed, put a couple of scout cars ahead of them to absorb the 2 seconds of fire you will receive(or even the MHT they spawned from) blow them up on whatever.  Great against Brit blobs and anything with checkpoint armor(which includes the 17 pounder and the bofors) dies in one hit from a goliath.

Hummel is extremely effective though.  Everytime I call mine on it kills a minimum of 20 infantry units and I've had games where it kills like 40+ infantry plus 4-5 AT guns and emplacements.  Its anti-tank capabilities are overrated, I hardly ever hit a vehicle with it, you'd have to get incredibly lucky.  That being said, it still costs too much fuel.  It needs to have its cost lowered to match the priest.

While this is true, it can be reused over and over and over again. The round in question, can only be used ONCE at a 50 munition cost... bear in mind the cost as well for purchasing the platform to fire this round in the first place.

Creeping barrage costs 150 munitions and can only be used once.  Its also much worse than this precision arty idea and generally not worth the cost.   

Do the same opinion on support weapons still stand? If so, then it shouldn't be a problem to have this ability.

No.   Reinforcements intentionally made support weapons a lot more survivable by having the last guy auto-retreat instead of commiting suicide.   There are a lot of vetted support weapons now.



Going back to the original topic.   One shot isn't really worth it at default accuracy.   Something like two shots with 50% less scatter and 75% of the cooldown could be quite useful however.

If you want precision arty, wait till sector arty.  Now that is true no warning no smoke 1 second drop hand of god arty.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Bear in mind that Hummel, is about the only thing the PE got that has a remote chance of breaking through a heavily fortified position.

I would note that basic PanzerGrenadiers are some of the best infantry in the game for breaking heavily fortified positions. Incendiaries force enemy out of cover/trenches/garrison and AT grenades destroy emplacements. G43s are one of the best anti-garrison weapons around.

AVRE does 500 damage stock.

The AVRE has damage penalties against most targets, plus the aforementioned accuracy issues.

[DemonicTruism]

Holy fuck. I didn't every say the arty was to be perfectly accurate, I said "precision arty style" as in you fire one shot at a time as opposed to a barrage - precise in the sense that it is minimal use of force, not that it is perfectly accurate.

Obviously deadly accurate arty is a shitty idea. The fact that Allied players have had it in the form of strafing run and t4 arty shows how retarded it is. I wanted something that would change the way the Hummel was used, not make it off the hook imbalanced.

[31stPzGren]

You could actually use goliaths.  I've seen them used with very good effect against fortified positions.

Put them on a road and they drive at bike speed, put a couple of scout cars ahead of them to absorb the 2 seconds of fire you will receive(or even the MHT they spawned from) blow them up on whatever.  Great against Brit blobs and anything with checkpoint armor(which includes the 17 pounder and the bofors) dies in one hit from a goliath.

It feels like a one trick pony though. We won't always be lucky enough to have a road to speed the little goliath on.

Creeping barrage costs 150 munitions and can only be used once.  Its also much worse than this precision arty idea and generally not worth the cost.   

I would use creeping barrage... You need to know its rightful application :p but for 150 munitions it is a little too expensive.

Going back to the original topic.   One shot isn't really worth it at default accuracy.   Something like two shots with 50% less scatter and 75% of the cooldown could be quite useful however.

If you want precision arty, wait till sector arty.  Now that is true no warning no smoke 1 second drop hand of god arty.

I still think 1 shot at 100% accuracy is a fantastic idea :p

I would note that basic PanzerGrenadiers are some of the best infantry in the game for breaking heavily fortified positions. Incendiaries force enemy out of cover/trenches/garrison and AT grenades destroy emplacements. G43s are one of the best anti-garrison weapons around.

HMG/BARs/Rangers = Pwned PzGrens. Believe me, PanzerGrenadiers are one of the most worthless infantry around. I have tried them out and they suck horribly.

[Killer344]

Garrisoned HMGs have additional sight, if you didn't see the slow AVRE crawling into weapons range its your own damn fault.   

And if you un-garrison and fall back I´d say the AVRE has done its job anyway  .

[DemonicTruism]

There is only one things PzGrens do better than other basic infantry - standoff with the G43. In this role, their frailty doesn't hurt them as much, and they have an appropriate weapon. The problem is that standoffs don't happen so much between the arty, elite infantry and armour going around. You can't standoff against piats, and you can't use G43s against emplacements.

[brn4meplz]

Actually the G43 in it's 2.400 incarnation is pretty junk. I got rushed by engineers and lost 2 G43 squads(to the point of 1 man retreat anyway) I was pretty pissed. About the only thing i find G43 usefull for is stopping a Fireup charge or heroic charge. especially if you have a MG trying to change facing

[Guderian]

Even if it hits it does not necessary needs to be right on the dot.

(and the target might not even die, tanks etc.)

[Bubz]

About the only thing i find G43 usefull for is stopping a Fireup charge or heroic charge. especially if you have a MG trying to change facing