pak price

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[CafeMilani]

rofl "deal with it"
nice explanation of changes, really! dude, ur a dev, u should be a authority!

its a stupid change, a major change which brakes mechanics

[31stPzGren]

Meta-Game just changed. Deal with it.

Ah, thanks for the clear cut explanation and here I thought things were changing.

[Warlight]

The 30 cal suppresses you? I didn't think it was capable of doing it at all . BARs? Well, congrats, you just got managed to lose to a 200 MP 80 MU infantry squad that rarely even comes in conjunction with 57 mms - it's usualy the same costing unit that looks the exact same, but has a different upgrade. Yes, you guessed it, a sticky.

Yes 30 Cals Supresses, and bars do too, and I even like sticking bombs, but as my favorite character in bravheart says "Don't change the Fookin subject"

Enough with the bullshit of "115 dmg for pak, 150 for 57" it's FLAWED!
The pak can shoot around 50 percent faster than a 57 mm, so stop being selective when discussing balance. With the cloak, the pak has 144 damage(25 percent more), meaning it does almost as much damage per shot with a faster firerate and 1000 percent penetration. If you want to pull down the cost of the pak to the 57 mm, it actualy makes quite a lot of sence to get free AP rounds - a 25 percent damage, 400 percent penetration increase. Not to mention how awesome cloak is at helping the pak survive.
Quick recap, for people like aloha that can't get it the first time :

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\       PAK            57
Damage per shot       115            150
Time between shots   3.7             5.3
DPS                        31.08         28.30
Dmg in ~11.1 secs     345            300
DPS with bonus         38.85        35.375
Penetration bonus     1000%         400%

AP rounds gets 2 shots off at best, 2 uses = 4 shots total.
PAK cloak currently gives all 3 cloaked shots the bonus.

More importantly, you don't tell people to ignore the theorycraft and then try to go into even more indepth theorycraft.  Espetialy when we all know that Allied or axis tanks alike all die plenty fast to AT guns.

While I have always been a fan of the L2P aspect of dealing with PaKs, and you can go find my earlier posts on teh subject, I'm willing to comprimise with people on this.  If the pak gets to rotate while cloaked, thats cool too.  But I've played a couple of games against this new de-ninjafied version and it seems to work quite well. 

I beleive I even played agame with them and it didn't bother me that much. 90% of the Paks I caught were still sitting in their cloaked hidy wholes, I didn't catch them while/because they had to Decloak and move. 

Just calm down and play the darn game.  For everything people say, I'm still under the impression that the Allied side is a little more powerful than the axis right now, but we have to consider that its three guys in a living room (Well at least EIRRmod) some where coding and balancing, not a huge studio.  So give them a frickin break or GTFO and go play something else. 

[Malevolence]

You Wehrmacht fan boys make wish we didn't have a balance discussion forum.

Saying "LRN2PLAYALLIEDNOOBS" is not a valid response to this change, nor is it a valid argument on these forums.

I play everything, so I hope that's not directed at me.

Calling this Pak change a "giant nerf" to Wehrmacht's Anti-Tank Capabilities is a blatant lie, so is accusing the EIR development team for catering for the lowest common denominator of player types. The Pak change has done nothing to the damage output, it hasn't change it's armour, it hasn't change it's hit points, all it has changed is how the cloak system works (which will be further tuned next patch). Your Pak gun still can cloak, it still gets to fire 3 rounds from cloak before revealing itself and it most most certainly still gets the first strike bonus.

The PaK change has done nothing to balance the PaK against the primary concern I have, which is that it gets two or even three "free hits" from cloak. From my point of view I would prefer if you set the cloak back, but made it decloak sooner (after one shot). If scouting is an issue then reduce cloaked line of sight as I've said before.

All that was change was the ability to move while in cloak. That is it; and we will be further improving it in the next patch to give you back some freedom regarding the pak gun. The cloak in Company of Heroes is supposed to be used defensively for ambushing enemy armour. However, in EIR players were using them aggressively to hunt enemy armour and artillery weapons, which resulted in frustration in a lot of Allied players (we saw a drop of nearly 25% of American accounts being deleted every week and many players giving up on the mod with one of the main reason being; Paks) as it could move forward, pop one or two shots from its range and move back to your defensive line without the threat of being spotted before or after the attack.

This is due to its ability to attack and REMAIN INVISIBLE. PaKs are used the same way in retail, as invisible rape machines, not as scouting units that spearhead the attack. The reason American players are leaving is not because PaKs can move while invisible, it's because their faction is fucking boring. They have little to no "special stuff" compared to Wehrmacht - they don't get a cool rocket launcher artillery automatically, their mortar is inferior, their mg is inferior, their atg is inferior because it can't turn invisible, their tanks are almost always inferior, their repair ability is inferior. The faction is just plain worse and you and everyone else knows it. Currently speaking, that is. Once the Americans' strategic artillery advantage is returned to them they may very well be balanced, but the reason the US is a lot less played is because they quite frankly are BAD. It's not going to be magic-fixed by fixing the least important issue of all Wehrmacht units, God forbid the PaK can scout around while it's invisible. Frankly when PaKs go out in front it's EASIER to kill them as Americans, you just nerfed Americans as far as I'm concerned by forcing PaKs to remain in the rear where they're best - it's like forcing the Wehrmacht to play properly, thus making it harder.

American players can't enjoy that kind of safely when it comes to using their 57mm's aggressively, as you will always see them moving up to attack your tanks and they are much easier to counter, either through normal infantry or your far superior mortars and HMGs. The reasoning behind this change is while, High Skilled players (a minority) know how to deal with Ninjapak guns, the average player don't understand how to counter these ninjapaks. Throwing infantry and tanks at one Pak gun results in a lot of wasted units, all to counter one unit.

Tanks don't have 60 line of sight, they won't see the AT gun before it's in range whether it's cloaked or not. If your tank is in range of the enemy, the enemy is in range of your tank, whether you like it or not. Keep it back or expect it to be shot.

PaKs are hard to counter because by the time you figure out A) You've been shot, B) Where the shots are coming from, and C) What to do, the PaK has already taken its two shots while invisible and slunk off into the night. If the PaK cannot "ninja strike" without revealing itself then people will be less prone to having problems. It'd be like if the Sniper could fire twice before decloaking - people would be taking free shots everywhere they could. Would the proper move be to make snipers immobile? No, it'd be to make them reveal themselves while attacking like every other cloaked unit. Same deal applies.

[Mysthalin]

Yes 30 Cals Supresses, and bars do too, and I even like sticking bombs, but as my favorite character in bravheart says "Don't change the Fookin subject"

It was in response to someone whining about how paks can get overrun so much easier than ATGs can without cloak  . +Sarcasm

More importantly, you don't tell people to ignore the theorycraft and then try to go into even more indepth theorycraft.  Espetialy when we all know that Allied or axis tanks alike all die plenty fast to AT guns.

Exact quote of me saying "stop theorycrafting?"
I told him to stop creating false claims, not to stop theorycrafting - if he's bringing in theoretical unit stats, he has to bring them all in, not just something select that makes the unit look like a worthless piece of shit when it's in fact, better than it's counterpart - as is shown in my calculation table.

change it back, it still costs much more than an ATGun.

20 MP 30 MU?
I think a 7 percent larger price for a 10 percent better DPS output is rather fair, no? Not to mention you also get free cloak into the bargain, which increases the DPS to a whooping 33 percent better damage output than the 57, while also allowing it to cloak.

[Warlight]

+Sarcasm

-Sarcasm

It only makes things worse. 

Edit:  STOP The theorycraft, its not valid.  Sorry I missunderstood what you were trying to say. 

Malevalence, may have a point.  The only thing U.S. has going for them are Rifles.  Even adding in teh doctrain units American players have only 2/3rds the amount of the units that the axis get to choose from at the start.  But I don't know if that is a flaw that the Devs of a mod like this can fix. 

Maybe, Just maybe the only way they are going to make this work is to make wher less interesting to Play?  if that makes any sense at all.

[CafeMilani]

blahbladamageblahnoblahbetterblah.

its more than 20% more expensive..and we all know the atgun is better even it has a higher cooldown. axis tanks are much slower.

and btw- the pak NEVER does more damage than an ATGun, but atguns with APR do fucking much damage.
this change was just not necessarily.
ofc, now there will be other units which will get on akranadas' nerfes and will be changed but leave the pak

[Mgallun74]

The Pak still gets multiple shots cloaked, saw it last night...

[Mysthalin]

Pak always manages to get off 2 shots at an allied tank before it gets back out of range, or into circle-strafing range.
57s never manage to get off 2 shots at an axis tank that starts reversing instantly.

Yet again, APR rounds last less than cloak does, comes with uses, and still doesn't give more DPS than a cloaked pak.

Some vehicle speeds :
M10 - 6.8, acceleration 1.7
Sherman - 5.2, acceleration 1.6
M8 - 6.4, acceleration 4.5, decc 4.5
P4 - 5, acceleration 1.2
Tiger - 4, acceleration 2
StuG/StuH - 5, acceleration 1.7
Panther - 5.2, acceleration 2.5
Goliath - 5.5, acceleration 8.
King Tiger - 3, acceleration 1.2
Puma - 7, acceleration 4.5
Ostwind - 5, acceleration 1.2
Tiger Ace - 5.5, acceleration 2(confirmation needed).

Frankly, the speeds on axis vehicles are only minorly subpar to their american counterparts. Most vehicles have decceleration values of 2x-2.5x their acceleration value. Meaning, a Tiger can start reversing at full speed from full forward within 3 seconds, leaving only the KT not capable of getting out of 2 shots from a 57mm. How many KTs have you seen lately? Thought so. When a 57 mm shoots you know exactly where it is and how to avoid it. When a pak shoots, you have to determine where it shot from, and in an intense combat situation you might not even notice yourself getting shot at all.

///////////////   MP cost    MU cost
PAK                 400           140       
57mm              380            110
57mm/PAK        0.95          0.786     = 0.868
% 57mm/PAK      5%          21.4%    = 13.2%
PAK/57mm        1.05          1.27       =  1.16
% PAK/57mm      5%            27%      = 16 %

So the price difference is roughly between 13.2(less for a 57mm) to 16(more for a pak) percent, depends on which ratio you want to look at.
Isn't exactly 7 percent, but it's not really near 20 percent either.
Looking at the damage table,

The pak does 9.8 percent more DPS, or the 57mm does 9 percent less DPS. With the pak uncloaked.
With cloak and AP rounds on both the DPS ratios stay the same, but you pay more for the AP rounds, which creates a whole new price table.

///////////////   MP cost    MU cost
PAK                 400           140       
57mm              380            150
57mm/PAK        0.95          1.07    =  1.01
% 57mm/PAK      5%            -7%     =  -1%
PAK/57mm        1.05           0.933    =  0.915
% PAK/57mm      5%         -6.7%      = -0.85 %

A 57 mm with AP rounds actualy costs 1 percent more than a pak(or the pak costs 0.85 percent less). So yeah, make the pak cost just as much as a 57, but cloak would have to be purchaseable, and tied to 2, 15(?) second uses like the AP rounds are. Also make the "cloak rounds" 400 percent penetration, not 1000 percent as it is now. And just call it AP rounds for the pak, and remove the cloak whatsoever - what's the point in even giving it to the pak any more? But this would lead to uniformity between factions, and I don't think that's appropriate - think it should stay as is.

Another thing to note is that the pak's gun itself actualy traverses faster - 25 degrees a second, whereas the 57 only has a meagre 18 degrees a second. Meaning the pak aquires targets faster(if they come on the side of the targetting cone, not straight on the gun), also switches between targets faster, and can track light vehicles(jeep, motorcycle, puma, tetrarch) better than the 57mm can.

Penetration over range and over range are the exact same for both guns, and there's only cosmetical differences between each other in terms of accuracy against simmilar kinds of vehicle.

[EliteGrens]

Reduce the price by 10-20 Muni or 50 mp and its fine.

[Mysthalin]

It's already fine as is, no need to decrease the price.
The numbers, and the gameplay doesn't lie - the pak has always been, and still is quite supperior to the 57 mm.

[EscforrealityTLS]

Yes but the current price on the PAK reflect its old ability of being able to move while cloaked, this has changed and the cost needs to reflect its new "defensive" roll.

[Mysthalin]

The pak was too powerful and was nerfed.
If you nerf it, and decrease the price, it means that it gets a nerf + buff, equaling no change, so there's no point in doing anything in the first place.
So no, it has now come almost into par with the 57, still having quite a significant edge over it, therefore the extra price compared to the 57 mm is quite appropriate.

The pak needed a nerf, that's what it got - live with it, and as you have been saying to all the allied players whenever they got nerfed - L2P.

[pernik]

...the pak has always been, and still is quite supperior to the 57 mm.

Well, if this'd be the only case of Axis superiority Oh, nevermind, Allies have mother OP artillery! hehe

Yes but the current price on the PAK reflect its old ability of being able to move while cloaked, this has changed and the cost needs to reflect its new "defensive" roll.

Decrease its price... when first strike buff changes. 'Cause right now, it's the same good unit as it was before this "nerf"... with a little exception of using it and this doesn't need a price decrease. If someone is bitching about new "useless" Pak, then he's bigger noob than I'm

[Mgallun74]

The pak was too powerful and was nerfed.
If you nerf it, and decrease the price, it means that it gets a nerf + buff, equaling no change, so there's no point in doing anything in the first place.
So no, it has now come almost into par with the 57, still having quite a significant edge over it, therefore the extra price compared to the 57 mm is quite appropriate.

The pak needed a nerf, that's what it got - live with it, and as you have been saying to all the allied players whenever they got nerfed - L2P.

plus it actually cost 160mun for the 57mm to be viable.. and thats only for 2 shots... a pak can cloak, shot its "AP" rounds... and run around, Cloak again and have more "AP" ro0unds.

[EscforrealityTLS]

Really I've been saying "L2P"? Feel free to point out where I've been saying that, thank you very much.

I've regularly said that I do not like off maps, because they are I win buttons that are un-counter-able and would prefer to keep all artillery on the field so it can be fought. You on the other hand seem to rather blowing shit up with arti than fighting.

Why then was the PAK not balanced on price rather than a stat change if the price tag was wrong? Why was no one bitching about the cheap spam-able PAK guns? Is it because the price reflected it usefulness?

I have only seen one explanation for the change from Ark and that was to change its roll from being possibly used aggressively to only being used defensively.

They did not change its cost because its cheap, they changed it stats to change its roll. It cost reflects it old abilities and need to be brought in line.

On a side note to Mysthalin, have I been screaming revert or anything like that? Have I attacked you personally in any of my posts? Any of them, feel free to point them out to me. Or where exactly I've been telling other people to play better, when I'm a sub-par player myself. To be honest I'm incredibly insulted.

[CafeMilani]

i say it right now: L2P!

esc is completely right, nobody complained about it but them akranadas (or another pro ally dev) came and said 'bullshit, i dont like it' -> change
reasoning: uhhh game mechanics changed with patches, it was OPed.
kinda rediculous to think about this...

[Bubz]

Aloha you're the one who should really learn to play...and learn to shut up sometime.

[Mgallun74]

Really I've been saying "L2P"? Feel free to point out where I've been saying that, thank you very much.

I've regularly said that I do not like off maps, because they are I win buttons that are un-counter-able and would prefer to keep all artillery on the field so it can be fought. You on the other hand seem to rather blowing shit up with arti than fighting.

Why then was the PAK not balanced on price rather than a stat change if the price tag was wrong? Why was no one bitching about the cheap spam-able PAK guns? Is it because the price reflected it usefulness?

I have only seen one explanation for the change from Ark and that was to change its roll from being possibly used aggressively to only being used defensively.

They did not change its cost because its cheap, they changed it stats to change its roll. It cost reflects it old abilities and need to be brought in line.

On a side note to Mysthalin, have I been screaming revert or anything like that? Have I attacked you personally in any of my posts? Any of them, feel free to point them out to me. Or where exactly I've been telling other people to play better, when I'm a sub-par player myself. To be honest I'm incredibly insulted.

Ok, i think differently on ART... the on field units are fine i suppose, but i think off maps are more realistic representation... in reality howitzers here miles away from the front lines, and only reachable by air, or if possible a breakthru or counter battery etc.. in reality you didnt have to worry about cloaked Stormtroopers, or hyper drive scout cars, or a single panther coming into you backfield to kill your howi etc...  i prefer the off maps, more realism..

now, if i could get 5 offmaps, with Straffing and bombing runs.. then you axis would feel the entire wrath of the American fighting machine! lolololol.

[Mysthalin]

By the 'you' I was reffering to the axis-only side of the community, not to you as a person Esc, and I did not intend to.  You have never insulted me, and I am sorry that my post insulted you(and I do see that your outrage is quite appropriate in this situation) - the wording I chose was wrong.
So yes, I officialy apologise to you, no sarcasm, irony or joke whatsoever in the apology.

You must have been blind if you haven't seen people complaining about paks, however - a search with the search tool would come up with at least 10 different threads, one of them being around 15 pages long - "Pak - the root of all evil" was it's name, IIRC. There MUST have been something wrong if it provided such a long topic of discussion. In that thread, by the way, I had advocated a much softer change to the pak to remove it's scouting, though seeing most of the good players such as draken still use paks to very great effect even with the change, I must say I'm in favor of this current change - if you're good, you still can use the paks alright.

Paks have been spammed in the past - even back in vEiR, with much more artilery and higher resources there was the term "pakspam". To give an example, two players, one having 4 paks, the other 5(by no means extraordinarily high numbers) were called "pakmen". Pakspamming was quite a problem, to be honest, and it's one of the things that forces allied players into spamming artilery - you can only ever flank a pak-infested position so much, and the HMGs provide quite a good defence against infantry for the pak. Frankly - taking out a pak+HMG+shrek/lmg gren position without artilery would often mean wasting 3 times as many resources if playing versus a decent player. And that without him using the 12+ popcap he has left for a P4.