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[CafeMilani]

By the 'you' I was reffering to the axis-only side of the community, not to you as a person Esc, and I did not intend to.  You have never insulted me, and I am sorry that my post insulted you(and I do see that your outrage is quite appropriate in this situation) - the wording I chose was wrong.
So yes, I officialy apologise to you, no sarcasm, irony or joke whatsoever in the apology.

You must have been blind if you haven't seen people complaining about paks, however - a search with the search tool would come up with at least 10 different threads, one of them being around 15 pages long - "Pak - the root of all evil" was it's name, IIRC. There MUST have been something wrong if it provided such a long topic of discussion. In that thread, by the way, I had advocated a much softer change to the pak to remove it's scouting, though seeing most of the good players such as draken still use paks to very great effect even with the change, I must say I'm in favor of this current change - if you're good, you still can use the paks alright.

Paks have been spammed in the past - even back in vEiR, with much more artilery and higher resources there was the term "pakspam". To give an example, two players, one having 4 paks, the other 5(by no means extraordinarily high numbers) were called "pakmen". Pakspamming was quite a problem, to be honest, and it's one of the things that forces allied players into spamming artilery - you can only ever flank a pak-infested position so much, and the HMGs provide quite a good defence against infantry for the pak. Frankly - taking out a pak+HMG+shrek/lmg gren position without artilery would often mean wasting 3 times as many resources if playing versus a decent player. And that without him using the 12+ popcap he has left for a P4.

lol there never was a pak spam jeez

its usual to get4 paks since AT gets fastly destroyed by hordes and hordes of shermans.
its also usual to get 4 atguns, thats not spam
and if 1 player gets a 3rd, well, his prob it costs insanely much and it still get nerfed.
thats stupid

bubz u better shut ur face, all ur comments are useless, srsly. i accept mystalins criticizm but i counter it, thats how this should work
so stfu, go play some gameboy but leave me alone, this is getting really annoying

[Leafedge]

Realism is the argument people make when they have no logical argument to make. If you want realism, then get the fuck out of here, because CoH, and its mods, will never be realistic, and if they ever are, then the game would suck.

Realism = tanks having different ranges, and axis heavies knocking out most allied tanks long before they are able to return fire, but we don't want that either (because it isn't fun). Same with snipers having barely any more range than a regular rifle, or even SMG for that matter.

Honestly, I don't really use Paks very much as axis, so it doesn't really affect me, but right now I can't play any online game properly (ISP shitting out), so fuck it. However as for balance changes, I've just come to accept that the devs make random changes to random things, generally favoring the allies, especially British, over the axis. I would like to say it's because the devs don't actually play the game much, but really I don't even know who is on the dev team except EIRRMod and apparently he smurfs to play sometimes, so that doesn't help anyway.

The cloak and first shot have always been what made the Pak pulls its weight. Without those, it is a vastly inferior gun to the 57. Even the First Shot the pak got didn't match the damage of the 57 with or without AP rounds, let alone the normal shots of the pak gun. The Pak sucks, it just had a cool ability.

In short, Schreks are now too costly to use, Paks are now shittier than 57's, so if your Wehrmacht, you just don't get good AT. Use tanks for your AT or something. Maybe Fausts  

[Mysthalin]

The pak, as has been stated above, has greater damage output than a 57 mm.
Also take into account the units the 57mm fights, and the units the pak fights. Frankly, a P4 with skirts is much scarier than a sherman with upgun, to an ATG. Panthers, Tigers, even StuHs are all either much better at killing the 57, or are much harder to kill by the 57 than a pak is(even without cloak bonuses) to pershings, shermans, churchills, cromwells(this may be an exception with it's flank speed, but who doesn't keep a shrecker(single or double) nearby their pak?)
Putting artilery into this discussion is not entirely valid, as axis have artilery as well. I've been seeing a nebel from each and every wehrmacht player I fought in the last decade, sometimes even 2. Most of them are vet 2 or vet 3, as well. Stukas are also decent enough. Precision artilery offmaps drop in quite fast and extremely accurately - the same can not be said about the howitzer off-map. Not to mention you just need to get within sight range of a motorbike to unleash a precision arty strike on top of a 57 mm, as oposed to getting point blank to a pak(or wait for it to shoot 3 times) when you want to offmap that properly(no good player will keep his pak in one place for the duration of a game, so if your sherman died to a pak 10 minutes ago doesn't mean the pak is still at that position).
The sheer fact you can't shoot back with a tank at a pak, as oposed to p4s being able to shoot back at 57s is also invaluable(or the supporting infantry).
The fact you can't kill paks with snipers is also an extremely valuable asset to the pak.

[Flashpoint Gold]

Make the PaK decloak itself after one shot, it's a simple fix to the problem of "pak sniping" The pak as a gun is not overpowered, it's the ability to snipe at tanks while invisible consistently that makes it very hard to counter. Once it starts to be aggressive it needs to reveal itself like the sniper does, simple and effective.

Decloak after 2 shots.

***
I do find it kind of funny that they locked the thread I made about the Pak nerf and told me to talk about it in one already made. I was like, "What one already made?" Well appearantly they were referring to this one which is suppose to be about the pricing of the Pak. While mine was about the nerf. Good job with on topic stuff, Devs.

PS- There was already a poll like this on the forums and guess what, Pak won at remaining the same at 50% of the votes. Their explanation for that being irrevelant? Its old. (Its not that old guys.)

[CafeMilani]

panzerjager and eirmod= pro

your all expressing yourself so well...

+1

[CafeMilani]

The pak, as has been stated above, has greater damage output than a 57 mm.
Also take into account the units the 57mm fights, and the units the pak fights. Frankly, a P4 with skirts is much scarier than a sherman with upgun, to an ATG. Panthers, Tigers, even StuHs are all either much better at killing the 57, or are much harder to kill by the 57 than a pak is(even without cloak bonuses) to pershings, shermans, churchills, cromwells(this may be an exception with it's flank speed, but who doesn't keep a shrecker(single or double) nearby their pak?)
Putting artilery into this discussion is not entirely valid, as axis have artilery as well. I've been seeing a nebel from each and every wehrmacht player I fought in the last decade, sometimes even 2. Most of them are vet 2 or vet 3, as well. Stukas are also decent enough. Precision artilery offmaps drop in quite fast and extremely accurately - the same can not be said about the howitzer off-map. Not to mention you just need to get within sight range of a motorbike to unleash a precision arty strike on top of a 57 mm, as oposed to getting point blank to a pak(or wait for it to shoot 3 times) when you want to offmap that properly(no good player will keep his pak in one place for the duration of a game, so if your sherman died to a pak 10 minutes ago doesn't mean the pak is still at that position).
The sheer fact you can't shoot back with a tank at a pak, as oposed to p4s being able to shoot back at 57s is also invaluable(or the supporting infantry).
The fact you can't kill paks with snipers is also an extremely valuable asset to the pak.

theoretically it does more damage over the time but it usually gets circlestrafed, artyd when seeked, so usually it does not more than 2 hits
and: allied tanks are way faster than axis'...i already mentioned that all

this is taxing   

[Mgallun74]

Realism is the argument people make when they have no logical argument to make. If you want realism, then get the fuck out of here, because CoH, and its mods, will never be realistic, and if they ever are, then the game would suck.

Realism = tanks having different ranges, and axis heavies knocking out most allied tanks long before they are able to return fire, but we don't want that either (because it isn't fun). Same with snipers having barely any more range than a regular rifle, or even SMG for that matter.

Honestly, I don't really use Paks very much as axis, so it doesn't really affect me, but right now I can't play any online game properly (ISP shitting out), so fuck it. However as for balance changes, I've just come to accept that the devs make random changes to random things, generally favoring the allies, especially British, over the axis. I would like to say it's because the devs don't actually play the game much, but really I don't even know who is on the dev team except EIRRMod and apparently he smurfs to play sometimes, so that doesn't help anyway.

The cloak and first shot have always been what made the Pak pulls its weight. Without those, it is a vastly inferior gun to the 57. Even the First Shot the pak got didn't match the damage of the 57 with or without AP rounds, let alone the normal shots of the pak gun. The Pak sucks, it just had a cool ability.

In short, Schreks are now too costly to use, Paks are now shittier than 57's, so if your Wehrmacht, you just don't get good AT. Use tanks for your AT or something. Maybe Fausts  

not looking for pure realism game, but this game needs to follow some realism path as its based off of ww2 war, and weapons etc.  off map ART is perfect example, ART would not be so close to the front to allow it self to be attack by cloaking dudes..

or, a sherman sitting in a perfect FOV where if anything came into view it could fight it, but this pak is moving close to get a shot in the FOV and i cant see it because its cloaked...

blah blah blah.

argument goes both ways.. for whatever side you like...

also calling out the DEVs was wrong too.. noob.

[Leafedge]

The pak, as has been stated above, has greater damage output than a 57 mm.

Honestly, I can't be bothered to read after that because clearly you have no fucking idea what you are talking about. A normal 57 shot does more damage than the pak is ever capable of doing. What was stated above was wrong. That's one of the reasons I posted what I did. People need to stop posting what has more or less this or that when they haven't bothered to even look these things up.

http://coh-stats.com/Weapon:50mm_Pak_38
http://coh-stats.com/Weapon:57mm_AT_Gun

For those too lazy, I'll tell you, the Pak does 115 damage, the 57 does 150. That means  the 57 does just over 130% damage of the Pak, which for those out there who are retards, is more than 125%, which is the first strike damage bonus.

L2 Stats, everyone. The 57's advantage was damage, the Pak had the penetration of first shot, and a bit more survivability in some respects. More because it cant be seen, less because in order to move, it takes an extra command, and allies have more artillery. Now 57 has even more mobility over the pak.

Edit: As for my comment about the Dev's, I just said that because I don't even know who is on the team, I can't account for why they make the changes they do. I'd like to say they play mostly allies, but I don't really know.

But really, I'll go ahead and say it now - It doesn't matter what I say here because when it comes down to it, I can't play EiR now because of shitty ISP, and in a few weeks I won't be playing EiR again. Ever. Real life circumstances are going to cut me off from competitive video games for a few years, and honestly by the time I can play them again, I probably won't bother. So do what you like devs, mute me, ban me, whatever, I'll be under my own ban soon enough. I'm just trying to point out the glaring idiocies in people's posts before I go so that the devs won't have to wade through as much stupidity to make informed decisions for a mod that I probably won't ever play again.

[Mgallun74]

The pak, as has been stated above, has greater damage output than a 57 mm.

Honestly, I can't be bothered to read after that because clearly you have no fucking idea what you are talking about. A normal 57 shot does more damage than the pak is ever capable of doing. What was stated above was wrong. That's one of the reasons I posted what I did. People need to stop posting what has more or less this or that when they haven't bothered to even look these things up.

http://coh-stats.com/Weapon:50mm_Pak_38
http://coh-stats.com/Weapon:57mm_AT_Gun

For those too lazy, I'll tell you, the Pak does 115 damage, the 57 does 150. That means  the 57 does just over 130% damage of the Pak, which for those out there who are retards, is more than 125%, which is the first strike damage bonus.

L2 Stats, everyone. The 57's advantage was damage, the Pak had the penetration of first shot, and a bit more survivability in some respects. More because it cant be seen, less because in order to move, it takes an extra command, and allies have more artillery. Now 57 has even more mobility over the pak.

Base stats... 57mm was better than the pak38 50mm gun.. in reality. 

[Malevolence]

Honestly, I can't be bothered to read after that because clearly you have no fucking idea what you are talking about. A normal 57 shot does more damage than the pak is ever capable of doing. What was stated above was wrong. That's one of the reasons I posted what I did. People need to stop posting what has more or less this or that when they haven't bothered to even look these things up.

The PaK does more damage in ideal circumstances (firing continuously at a target) while the 57mm does more damage in its first shot. This makes it superior in some real game circumstances (such as a tank pokes its front in range, then gets shot and backs out), but the PaK's cloak helps to make sure tanks get drawn into mid range of its gun, thereby ensuring a kill.

Damage output in a realistic scenario is about even, damage output in a perfect scenario for the PaK is higher.

[AmPM]

In reality they were not using many PAK38's during this period of the war, having moved to the much higher production PAK40 7.5cm.

[panzerjager1943]

In reality the Pak38 and 57mm were both incredibly ineffective by 1944.

[Malevolence]

AT guns were never that effective given their lack of engines. Hard to move, but inexpensive...

[Unkn0wn]

In reality I should lock this thread.
Get back on topic.

[gamesguy2]

The pak, as has been stated above, has greater damage output than a 57 mm.

Honestly, I can't be bothered to read after that because clearly you have no fucking idea what you are talking about. A normal 57 shot does more damage than the pak is ever capable of doing. What was stated above was wrong. That's one of the reasons I posted what I did. People need to stop posting what has more or less this or that when they haven't bothered to even look these things up.

http://coh-stats.com/Weapon:50mm_Pak_38
http://coh-stats.com/Weapon:57mm_AT_Gun

For those too lazy, I'll tell you, the Pak does 115 damage, the 57 does 150. That means  the 57 does just over 130% damage of the Pak, which for those out there who are retards, is more than 125%, which is the first strike damage bonus.

L2 Stats, everyone. The 57's advantage was damage, the Pak had the penetration of first shot, and a bit more survivability in some respects. More because it cant be seen, less because in order to move, it takes an extra command, and allies have more artillery. Now 57 has even more mobility over the pak.

Edit: As for my comment about the Dev's, I just said that because I don't even know who is on the team, I can't account for why they make the changes they do. I'd like to say they play mostly allies, but I don't really know.

But really, I'll go ahead and say it now - It doesn't matter what I say here because when it comes down to it, I can't play EiR now because of shitty ISP, and in a few weeks I won't be playing EiR again. Ever. Real life circumstances are going to cut me off from competitive video games for a few years, and honestly by the time I can play them again, I probably won't bother. So do what you like devs, mute me, ban me, whatever, I'll be under my own ban soon enough. I'm just trying to point out the glaring idiocies in people's posts before I go so that the devs won't have to wade through as much stupidity to make informed decisions for a mod that I probably won't ever play again.

Leaph, before you call someone an idiot you may wish to have a tiny bit of clue about wtf you're talking about.

57mm does 150 damage every 5.3 seconds, pak does 115 damage every 3.7 seconds.  Do some fucking math and figure out which does more dps.  Guess what?  Its the fucking pak.

By your logic K98s do more dps than LMGs because K98s do 10 damage a shot where as LMGs do 5.

[gamesguy2]

The pak, as has been stated above, has greater damage output than a 57 mm.
Also take into account the units the 57mm fights, and the units the pak fights. Frankly, a P4 with skirts is much scarier than a sherman with upgun, to an ATG. Panthers, Tigers, even StuHs are all either much better at killing the 57, or are much harder to kill by the 57 than a pak is(even without cloak bonuses) to pershings, shermans, churchills, cromwells(this may be an exception with it's flank speed, but who doesn't keep a shrecker(single or double) nearby their pak?)
Putting artilery into this discussion is not entirely valid, as axis have artilery as well. I've been seeing a nebel from each and every wehrmacht player I fought in the last decade, sometimes even 2. Most of them are vet 2 or vet 3, as well. Stukas are also decent enough. Precision artilery offmaps drop in quite fast and extremely accurately - the same can not be said about the howitzer off-map. Not to mention you just need to get within sight range of a motorbike to unleash a precision arty strike on top of a 57 mm, as oposed to getting point blank to a pak(or wait for it to shoot 3 times) when you want to offmap that properly(no good player will keep his pak in one place for the duration of a game, so if your sherman died to a pak 10 minutes ago doesn't mean the pak is still at that position).
The sheer fact you can't shoot back with a tank at a pak, as oposed to p4s being able to shoot back at 57s is also invaluable(or the supporting infantry).
The fact you can't kill paks with snipers is also an extremely valuable asset to the pak.

theoretically it does more damage over the time but it usually gets circlestrafed, artyd when seeked, so usually it does not more than 2 hits
and: allied tanks are way faster than axis'...i already mentioned that all

this is taxing   

If we're gonna go that route then the 57mm never does any damage because any competent player would just send in a squad of grens ahead of the tank, get shot at by the 57mm, and back off the tank while calling in mortar/hummel/nebel/stuka/precision strike/pwnshel on the 57mm and own it.

At least paks can get off those two shots. 57mms shoot at infantry, so if you maintain an infantry screen you should never get shot by it.

[Illegal_Carrot]

I realize this was several pages ago, but I have to address this:

The reasoning behind this change is while, High Skilled players (a minority) know how to deal with Ninjapak guns, the average player don't understand how to counter these ninjapaks.

Stickies and Button aren't things that a new or even average Axis player can deal with easily, and worse yet, Axis have no real equivalent. Are we going to see any nerfs to those soon?

EIRRMod himself said that the PaK changes might be reverted, depending on public opinion. Why get mad at people (including Allied players) just for sharing their thoughts on the subject?

Also, way to say

Saying "LRN2PLAYALLIEDNOOBS" is not a valid response to this change, nor is it a valid argument on these forums.

and then respond to a legitimate comment with

Deal with it.

Back to the matter at hand: Would a reasonable answer to the PaK 'unbalance' be to reduce the price of AP shells, possibly to 35 MUN for 2?
Almost every combination of movement/decloak/vision/price nerfs have already been suggested (even multiple times by Malevolence), yet they continue to be ignored. Maybe a 57mm price decrease would garner more attention?

[EIRRMod]

EIRRMod himself said that the PaK changes might be reverted, depending on public opinion.

Not quite

Depending on how the changes work out.  Public opinion is good to have, but should not (and wont) influence changes of and by themselves.

A small tweak is being introduced in the next few hours that will make the pain less.

[gamesguy2]

EIRRMod himself said that the PaK changes might be reverted, depending on public opinion.

Not quite

Depending on how the changes work out.  Public opinion is good to have, but should not (and wont) influence changes of and by themselves.

A small tweak is being introduced in the next few hours that will make the pain less.

Hey Eirrmod is there any chance you can check if the pak first strike bonus lasts for one or three shots?  It should only be one but it feels like its three.

[Illegal_Carrot]

EIRRMod himself said that the PaK changes might be reverted, depending on public opinion.

Not quite

Depending on how the changes work out.  Public opinion is good to have, but should not (and wont) influence changes of and by themselves.

A small tweak is being introduced in the next few hours that will make the pain less.

Hey Eirrmod is there any chance you can check if the pak first strike bonus lasts for one or three shots?  It should only be one but it feels like its three.

It is three.
Just about everyone's been suggesting a one-shot bonus, though, rather than disallowing cloaked PaK movement.