Off-maps suggestion

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[Igawa]

It's been a while since I last played EIR and i'm considering re-installing and getting back into it. From what i've heard about the off-maps thus far it feels the same (in terms of the whining) as in the old days, even with the PP cost.

What do people think of changing the off-maps to be more strategic? Increase the overall amount of artillery shots per use, increase the uses, greatly increase the spread, remove the smoke, and highly increase the delay between firing sound and shells landing. Other ideas include lengthen barrage firing sound and barrage time, remove LOS requirement

I realize this is a far cry from what we're all used to, but I think it would be a good change. The tactical, 5-second arty, bombing/strafing runs, etc all seem like point and click pwn buttons. There's already enough tactical elements to this game without off-maps being used to counter everything on both the attack and defense. Another aspect would now be the difference between off-maps and on-map artillery. I remember when I never packed any artillery, and just used the off-maps because they were both more accurate and more versatile than on-map. This should help solidify the distinction between fast, pinpoint, hard-hitting on-map tactical artillery and off-map strategic barrages. AND it should help stop off-maps from being used to accurately rape largely immobile units (eg howie, 25pdr, nebel, lockdown) even when they're way behind your own front line. Now you can keep that vet 3 howie/nebel alive because you played well, and kept it out of the line of fire, rather than losing it to an off-map every time the enemy gets line of sight.

It was always funny to me how the same guns fired from off the map were MORE accurate and had LONGER RANGE than when fired from inside it. By the way, I'm only suggesting this for off-map ARTILLERY (howie, firestorm) bought WITH PP. Officer barrage, FOO, etc are not included in this.

(by increasing spread I'm thinking like....from the original howie circle, to the size of a nebel at max range; or to the size of the top of ardenne valley. Shots would land randomly at maybe a house length apart + or - a bit)

Just an idea I had while catching up on all these forums and listening to the familiar wailing and gnashing of teeth about off-maps. Please keep discussion civil and your arguments well-supported and on topic.

PS: Since there's no suggestion forum I'm going to assume this is the place for this. Plz move if necessary

[Piotrskivich]

I like this idea, so it is more of a barrage at the enemy territory? Would make a lot of sense for attack missions too. That would be really cool.

[Malevolence]

Wow Igawa, this is a surprisingly good idea.

Offmap artillery should be the strategic weapon it represents by forcing an opponent out of an area, not a unit killer. Now dodging artillery will be about hoping a shell doesn't randomly land on your head or simply moving out of the zone just like before, but staying will be more viable...

I like it as an idea for offmap, but I would strongly recommend to keep the smoke - otherwise it's just an unexpected pwn button instead of an instant pwn button.

[Igawa]

Well, i was thinking that instead of smoke providing a visual notification that the artillery is incoming, but just to use the sound of the barrage. The delay will be much longer and the sound probably needs to be longer/louder, but then it lets you keep an element of 'omg, artillery incoming' without knowing exactly what will be in danger, rather than knowing where it will hit beforehand.

Everything is negotiable here, keep up the discussion

[Malevolence]

Well, if you don't know where it'll hit it can just instapwn something halfway across the map for all the player knows. There needs to be some way to use your skill to keep your units alive, and I think that knowing where it would come in (roughly) in maybe the next 15 seconds would give you enough time to either think you can ride it out (hold at expense of casualties) or pull back and give up the position, which is a nice "friendly" way to use artillery that won't result in gibbed units unless you're willing to risk it.

[Igawa]

When you put it like that I can see what you're getting at, and when i think about it it makes good sense now to at least provide enough information to know if you want to risk riding it out.

And it can also help with when your allies use arty, the sound starts, and suddenly you're scrambling to get your troops to cover when there's no threat at all.

[#Freek]

I like the idea of less accurate offmaps, though the 'warning signal' needs a little work, seems like a good idea.
May want to get rid of the LoS requirement for offmaps.


Along these lines, I'm thinking the howi/nebel should get a little accuracy buff.  [Eg, Most of my howi shots are out of the circle symbol]

[Igawa]

! TY Freek for mentioning the LOS, I didn't think about that. Yes something will definitely need to be done about that otherwise you would need to scout out the entire area in order to call in the barrage, which would usually be impossible or not worth it.

[EscforrealityTLS]

What if the warning was a ranging shell that hits anywhere in the targeted circle but with an accuracy of zero so it does no damage but lets the enemy know, lets get the hell out of here.

[gamesguy2]

No.

I don't want to run away from the red smoke and then have a scattered shot form hell annilate half my army 30 meters away from the red smoke.

Scatter is bad.   You should lose your crap if you're not paying attention and too slow to run away from the red smoke.  If certain arty comes too fast like precision strike and bombing run, then increase the delay.

[AmPM]

I would actually prefer it to act as a real artillery barrage, you target an area, and it ranges in with a few shots before hitting that area (a wide area) but with plenty of delay and an audio warning from the units that are in the area.

The nice thing about scatter, is it prevents people from using it as a surgical weapon ahead of their assault, as it can just as easily hit them...perhaps it could target a sector, and hit all adjacent sectors a few times as well. Could be fun stuff.

[Malevolence]

Gamesguy has a point that this system could go horrifically wrong, but if it was genuinely less tactically deadly and still avoidable given the proper reaction, I don't see why a barrage should not be more strategic (scours area of emplacement/bunker/whatever, clears sector of enemy troops unwilling to stay in the barrage, et c., simply due to its size despite enormous scatter).

Adding something like "strategic artillery strike" to Americans would give them a whole new reason to be played - in real life they were artillery centric, but something like offmap howitzer shoot didn't exist. The smoke didn't come down and gib whatever was under it in the next three seconds - there were large scale barrages, not precision strikes.

[Igawa]

I'm going out on a limb here but assuming that off-map arty shells are separate (in terms of damage tables) could it be possible to significantly reduce the damage or AOE given to troops in heavy/bunker/building cover (trench tables?)? That way you can run your troops to safety once the shells start falling, and not have to be as paranoid about that one lucky shell roflpwning your vet 3 squad. On the flip side, it discourages people for having too many troops and not enough cover (eg blobbing), AND punishes attacking troops more if they decide to waltz in during the barrage.

The time for the whole barrage is something else to take into account as well, it should last longer (10 sec?) with few scattered shots per second.

Some more ideas to think about.

[EIRRMod]

Its definately food for thought Igawa.

The offmaps do need adjusting - uses is one way, pp costs another - but ultimately, the flaw may indeed lie in the abilities themselves.

[gamesguy2]

I'm going out on a limb here but assuming that off-map arty shells are separate (in terms of damage tables) could it be possible to significantly reduce the damage or AOE given to troops in heavy/bunker/building cover (trench tables?)? That way you can run your troops to safety once the shells start falling, and not have to be as paranoid about that one lucky shell roflpwning your vet 3 squad. On the flip side, it discourages people for having too many troops and not enough cover (eg blobbing), AND punishes attacking troops more if they decide to waltz in during the barrage.

The time for the whole barrage is something else to take into account as well, it should last longer (10 sec?) with few scattered shots per second.

Some more ideas to think about.

Cover does reduce artillery damage.   Barring a direct hit, heavy cover nearly completely mitigates artillery damage, thats why spamming sandbags around your 88 helps a lot.

Garrisoned units are almost immune to traditional howitzer artillery.   The only way to kill a garrisoned unit with howitzers is to bring down the building.

Bunkers are the same way, you pretty much need to kill the bunker to get to the troops inside.

[gamesguy2]

Its definately food for thought Igawa.

The offmaps do need adjusting - uses is one way, pp costs another - but ultimately, the flaw may indeed lie in the abilities themselves.

IMO once doctrines are fully implemented it won't be this bad.   Just make all the heavy duty artillery a tier 3/4.  That way you would have to choose between say raid assault or air superiority.

But right now where everyone can just unlock everything its pretty skewed towards offmaps.

[salan]

I saw multiple occasions of this happening today.  Troops in normal buildings weathered the storm until the building fell on them with almost no damage in almost all cases.

darn buildings didn't last long though ! ha!

[acker]

Buildings grant an accuracy reduction of 85-90% against offmap artillery rounds.

The three exceptions to the buildings=safe rule are...Calliopes, Nebelwerfers, and Stukas. And Firestorm.

[Igawa]

In this sort of widespread, inaccurate arty, buildings would probably be a very safe place for troops because the likelihood of shells hitting the same building more than two or three times is (intended to be) unlikely. In the past, when you would use offmaps to collapse a building on top of a MG team, would no longer work. There's still options for that, however (FOO/Officer/Onmap)

In an urban map it could provide interesting situations where buildings can be randomly be damaged/destroyed depending on how frequently the two teams use their strategic arty.

[Mysthalin]

Would be awesome!
*Click, find target, click*
*wait 10 seconds*
*BOOM LOLOLLBOMBOOMBOOOMBOOOMBOOOOOOOOOOOOMBO OOMBOOOOOOOOM*
*Booom*
*BOOM BOOOM BOOM*
*Bom*
*boom*
*BOOM BOOM*
*end*
*ninja boom*