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[Demonic Spoon]

This replay demonstrates two things

1) Grenadiers are too damn popcap effective. Yes, they're more expensive than rifles, but they come with grenades, are better, and are only 2/3 the popcap. Up the popcap of a squad to 6

2) What the fuck is with this free inspired assault? Make it cost, or give it a MUCH longer recharge time. They hit that one button and suddenly all of your infantry dies from the massive firepower-the cover penalty is usually not that noticeable.

Battle #36 i think



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[Unkn0wn]

1) I disagree.
2x rifles for 1 gren squad and with bars you can be nearly as effective.

2) already fixed for next release.

[Lai]

Free inspired assault is already being looked at. Popcap can't be raised to 6. You have to price every unit with an integer. It's either 4 or 8... that we can choose from.

[Unkn0wn]

And 8 popcap for grenadiers is just ridiculous.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

2x rifles for 1 gren squad

except thats not what happens, you get 2 rifles vs 3 grenadiers and the rifles get raped, 2 rifles vs 3 grenadiers and the rifles get raped, 2 rifles vs 3 grenadiers and the rifles get raped.

I dont see how you can say otherwise after that game - the entire late period was nothing but elite kch and grenadiers raping allied infantry who couldn't possibly amass enough firepower or enough troops to hold back the tide.  You can't even use shermans because every axis player invests heavily in shreks.

the only thing i can suggest is having allies work on a different popcap scale than axis. For example, axis having a popcap of 20 to start (4 volks squads) while allies stick with 24 (4 rifle squads).  a lot of work but the way eir works right now is just lame.

hopefully kch rework will help stem the problem but I think you should bring weapon crews back down too as they are the principal means by which allied players even the odds.

[Unkn0wn]

Grenadiers are fine.

As for KCh I don't want to hear anymore balance complaints about it untill the 6 popcap is in and working.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

How can you say they are fine? You played that game didnt you?

gren,gren,gren spam ftw.

axis brings in all the AT, anti-infantry, and construction ability it ever needs in the FIRST WAVE, every game. Allies cant do that and it just goes on and on and on, the odds are against allies in every fight.

Look at my freaking leaderboard.

100% axis wins.

40% allied wins.

the allies just dont win, they have an extremely rough time scoring squad kills, and the timer is butchery.

[Unkn0wn]

I've played against grenadiers as allies, it's fine.
Grenadiers have been 4 popcap since EiR first came out, this is the first time I hear complaints about it .

KCH are an issue and that issue will be fixed in the next balance update.
Inspired assault is an issue and that will be fixed in the next balance update

[TheDeadlyShoe]

you must be deaf, i've been complaining about axis popcap since i got here, ive started numerous threads and had many people agree with me

same goddamn thing with KCH, i walked through it so many times. i think people even said it would be changed to 6 popcap but that vanished somehow. And now we got TONS of people saying KCH are imbalanced.

[Unkn0wn]

But KCH ARE getting changed.

Also you fail to acknowledge that the only solution for grenadiers is either 4 or 8 popcap and you know as well as I do that 8 popcap is ridiculous.
Once free inspired assault is gone we can review this issue again

[ssbechtold3]

I feel alot of the problem is that Axis get way too much munitions.  Gren squads wouldn't be so bad if there wasn't 8 fully decked out ones roaming around.  I wouldn't even consider raising their pop cap to 8, that makes them obsolete.  I do think a lot of these issues will be fixed with persistency, but then again if you get a crap load of new resources each day for each Company it doesn't matter much.

[acker]

I have complained about the Axis popcap, too, but I shut up relatively quickly; I thought the devs would change it later.

Now...6 popcap engineers, and 3 popcap KCH (what ever happened to 6 popcap KCH?!). Evidently, I need to shout more.

From what I've seen, gren spam is crazy, but it's not the problem with the grens; it's simply that the grens have way too many panzershreks and LMGs. At 4 popcap, this means that you can have a lot of ordnance around. And, since drop values haven't been changed, panzershreks drop easily, and are simply recaptured by new gren squads.

That was annoying, watching an all-infantry force take out 2 (maybe 3, can't remember) shermans, 2 quads, an M10, and dozens of riflemen/airbourne/rangers.

The game after that, I bought a Calliope and annihilated some gren attack (equips were everywhere after that barrage). Thank *diety* for Calliopes. Unfortunately, my Calliope got owned by shreks immediately afterwards by new, reequipped grens.

[Alphawolf]

First off, "hoorah" for the change in KCH popcap. It really was a glaring balance issue.

The grenadiers, however, are also part of a different issue discussed here. Not only are they popcap effective, but they have ready and easy access to shreks, an anti-tank weapon. Allies don't have the same luxury unless they choose airborne doctrine and pay CP for RR (which were nerfed), or to choose rangers under the infantry doctrine.

Why can't grenadier popcap be 6 as well (as opposed to 4 or 8 and not entertaining anything in between) Maybe a heavier munitions cost on shreks would do the trick.

I don't have a problem with grenadiers and stormtroopers from an infantry v infantry standpoint. But, when you examine the problem of 6-8 shreks and 2-4 LMG42's on the field it creates an interesting scenario for allies. Axis can spam a single unit with varied upgrades to easily counter combined arms of vehicles and infantry. Well micro'd combined arms should have superiority if we're addressing true balance.

The notion that a single spammed unit can dominate the battlefield can be viewed as imbalanced. However, while gren spam does take vehicles out of the equation (because we've all seen how quickly and easily a horde of them wreck allied vehicles, rendering them impotent), it isn't as much of a problem as KCH popcap and free IA. Afterall, a horde of grens can be beaten with allied support units (mortars, HMG's, and snipers), as most pure infantry spamming can be.

Fixing free IA should go a long way.

I for one feel as though the 40% chance for double veterency on defensive doctrine could afford tweaking. Suggestions would be to either lower the % chance for double veterency or make the doctrine ability cost more and/or higher up (lower physically) on the ability tree.

Anything said for grenadiers can be said for stormstroopers (and they also get cloak).

[acker]

Stormtroopers aren't that bad...they are doctrine specific, and are rarer than grens.

The Axis Sniper gets double-shot at vet 2. Please tell me that Defensive Double Veterancy doesn't affect axis snipers. If it does, it goes a long way to IMBA.

To solve gren problem: raise shrek costs. Do not touch thier popcap! Seriously, some unit population cap variety is to be expected...

[Skunker]

This replay demonstrates two things

1) Grenadiers are too damn popcap effective. Yes, they're more expensive than rifles, but they come with grenades, are better, and are only 2/3 the popcap. Up the popcap of a squad to 6

2) What the fuck is with this free inspired assault? Make it cost, or give it a MUCH longer recharge time. They hit that one button and suddenly all of your infantry dies from the massive firepower-the cover penalty is usually not that noticeable.

Battle #36 i think

Free IS is going to be removed likely, but grens are fine.  2 rifle squads with bars can hold off 4 gren squads easily.

Storms are not effective vs infantry, and if you have proper security you will never have an issue with storms. Combined arms is the easiest approach to avoid getting your armor raped.

Yes KCH are/were imbalanced but that's fixed.

Shreks already cost 260 munis, that's a shitload. Plus shreks can be dropped and obtained by allied troops.

[|-|Cozmo|-|]

shrecks are expensive enough. arbourne lacks any real AT atm since RR's are at the bottom of the tree for some reason...

[acker]

Exaggeration (Unknown). Though it sounds fine as a theory (SF), I haven't seen it happen yet. Esp. since Axis players aren't stupid enough to charge with LMGs out of cover since LMGs have longer ranges than riflemen BARs.

Shreks evidently are not expensive enough; simply look at the gren squads. Or maybe shreks are expensive enough. In that case, how does gren spam annihilate infantry and vehicles?

Unlike rangers or airbourne, grens are core infantry units for the Axis, and are used more frequently than Rangers or Airbourne. I think this has something to do with the shrek spammage, but I'm not sure what.

[Alphawolf]

Skunker: "Yes KCH are/were imbalanced but that's fixed. "


Tis' good see that you've seen the light  .

[|-|Cozmo|-|]

thinking about it with the new reasorses i think shrecks could be upped, to be on par with rr's, in the 300+'s.

[Unkn0wn]

With the new resources you could consider changing everything...