What happens to people without Tales of Valor

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[Mysthalin]

1. Equal vet level - yet again, vet 1 for T17 gives a LUDICROUS +100 percent hp. DOUBLE HP! Ostwind vet 1 is 0.85 recieved damage. Veterancy in vCoH has always been better for the allies due to the fact they had to earn it, but it is redonculous for the T17.

It will not be like that in EiR, I can assure you on that. Vet 0 vs vet 0, ostwind can kill a T17 in 8-9 hits. One, single clip from the ostwind(2 clips). At vet 1 for the T17, the ostwind needs to fire off 17-18 hitting and penetrating shots. Rather

2. Vehicle stun - it'll be on a much, much longer cooldown(if not single-use) in EiR than it is in vCoH, will cost a lot of extra resources.

3. At close range, the ostwind has a 81% chance to hit a stationary T17. If the T17 is moving, it further drops to 64.8 percent, When the ostwind is moving, it drops to 40.5-37.4 percent. Quite a difference, no? When moving, the cooldown for the ostwind also incrases, further decreasng it's firepower.

Ostwind fires 3 rounds in a totale of 3.5 seconds, reloads every 15.
3 Rounds in 3 seconds, 15 rounds in 17 seconds, 18 rounds in 25 seconds.
T17 fires a round every 3.25 seconds, with no time to ready up the shot.
2 rounds in 3.25 seconds. 5 rounds in 15 seconds, 9 rounds in 26 seconds.

20 dmg per shot vs T17, 65 dmg per shot vs Ostwind.

Both stationary, close range :
Ostwind fires 15 rounds in 17 seconds, of which 12 will hit and 9.7(doesn't matter how I round it) will penetrate and likely killing the poor thing. GG T17.
T17 fires off 5 rounds in 17 seconds, of which all 5 will hit and 3.5(rounding to 4), and put the ostwind down to 125 hp, with no chance to kill it.

Ostwind utterly rapes the T17 if both stand still at close range.

Ostwind stationary, T17 moving :
Ostwind fires 15 rounds in 17 seconds, of which 9.72(rounding to 10) will hit and 7.6 will penetrate(rounding to . Total damage - 166, 9 HP left. Possible kill.
T17 fires every 4.4 seconds while moving.
T17 fires 5 rounds in 19 seconds, of which 4.5(rounding to 5) will hit, and 3.15(rounding to 3) will penetrate.
Total damage - 215, 185 HP left.

T17 has no chance of winning whatsoever in this either.

Don't think it's worth doing the other calculations, the T17 will definately lose if the ostwind is stationary, and the T17 is best off staying still itself.

[Malevolence]

ToV units would fit just fine in EIRR, it's just about pricing it right, no big deal. Let's say that the T17 is some gift from heaven unit, just make it the cost of a sherman. why does everyone make such a big deal over the units in ToV.

The problem is ToV units are all cheesy rape machines. Giant clown car, ultraostwind mounted on an M8, ultra marder, tank with a rocket rack on it without the gun disabled (admittedly the rocket rack is kind of shitty)... the only one I could really approve of in any environment is the Staghound, but since in retail it replaces the cromwell command tank, there's no point to using it.

Just terrible cheesy units.

[Baine]

ToV units would fit just fine in EIRR, it's just about pricing it right, no big deal. Let's say that the T17 is some gift from heaven unit, just make it the cost of a sherman. why does everyone make such a big deal over the units in ToV.

The problem is ToV units are all cheesy rape machines. Giant clown car, ultraostwind mounted on an M8, ultra marder, tank with a rocket rack on it without the gun disabled (admittedly the rocket rack is kind of shitty)... the only one I could really approve of in any environment is the Staghound, but since in retail it replaces the cromwell command tank, there's no point to using it.

Just terrible cheesy units.

That one looks cheesy aswell. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zRAhuB3sMI

[Latios418]

You... do realize that the T17 and Staghound are the same thing? The only differences being the brits version sucks because it's bugged with no command aura, has no WP rounds, no omgwtfbbq awesome vet, and replaces the CCT.

[Malevolence]

Staghound is an armored car that doesn't resemble an ostwind on crack.

[BeRzErKeR]

So... Players without the ToV = no new units? 

[Akranadas]

Yes, no new ToV units.

[Malevolence]

Seems kind of like "buy an advantage" tbh.

[Akranadas]

Advantage? The units aren't anymore powerful then regular ones.

Don't worry; eventually I HOPE everyone will get new units to play with.

[Malevolence]

Access to unique units is always an advantage in an RTS.

[Latios418]

Not when they're balanced properly.

[Malevolence]

Yes, always. Every single time. There is absolutely no way around it, and this is reinforced especially hard with the availability system.

New Units = Advantage, no ifs ands or buts.

[gamesguy2]

Ostwind fires 5 rounds in a totale of 5.5 seconds, reloads for another 5.
5 rounds in 5.5 seconds, 10 rounds in 15.5, 15 rounds in 25.5.
T17 fires a round every 3.25 seconds, with no time to ready up the shot.
2 rounds in 3.25 seconds. 5 rounds in 15 seconds, 9 rounds in 26 seconds.

Your ostwind math is all screwed up.

Ostwind fires in bursts of 3.   1 shot per second for 3 seconds, then it cools down, and does it again.  it reloads every 5 bursts or 15 shots, reload takes average of 5 seconds.  The cooldown is .5 seconds(more if moving).

So it fires 3 shots every 3.5 seconds until it has to reload.   Therefore it fires 15 shots every 3.5*5+5=22 seconds(last cooldown is overwriten by reload).

[Akranadas]

Yes, always. Every single time. There is absolutely no way around it, and this is reinforced especially hard with the availability system.

New Units = Advantage, no ifs ands or buts.

it works the same way as if you picked a different reinforcement package;

[Mysthalin]

Ostwind fires 5 rounds in a totale of 5.5 seconds, reloads for another 5.
5 rounds in 5.5 seconds, 10 rounds in 15.5, 15 rounds in 25.5.
T17 fires a round every 3.25 seconds, with no time to ready up the shot.
2 rounds in 3.25 seconds. 5 rounds in 15 seconds, 9 rounds in 26 seconds.

Your ostwind math is all screwed up.

Ostwind fires in bursts of 3.   1 shot per second for 3 seconds, then it cools down, and does it again.  it reloads every 5 bursts or 15 shots, reload takes average of 5 seconds.  The cooldown is .5 seconds(more if moving).

So it fires 3 shots every 3.5 seconds until it has to reload.   Therefore it fires 15 shots every 3.5*5+5=22 seconds(last cooldown is overwriten by reload).

My bad, I had been certain the burst frequency is the ammount of rounds fired, not the ammount of bursts fired.
Will fix the calcs.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Alright, new T17 replay, for those who decided to ignore the results of the first for some reason.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=WQRO3ILW

1. Stun will be a seperate upgrade if included at all in EIR, therefore you should not include it.

2. The guy microing the ostwind is full of fail.  Ostwind should NOT move.  It has a terrible on the move accuracy penalty and the benefits of frontal armor is minimal compared to that.

A much better comparison would be a stationary ostwind, T17 run in range and micro however it wants(but no stun) vs the stationary ostwind.

I think you will see a very different result.

1. Stun is such a useful ability, there's no way that anyone wouldn't purchase it. Even if it has a huge cooldown, the WP round's ability to completely halt a vehicle's functions is amazing. It'll join Button and Sticky as Allies' 'I Win' button against vehicles, and live happily ever after in the land of Spamalot.

2. We do several tests in this one, which include:
Moving Ost/still T17, both moving, and moving T17/still Ost. T17 wins every time, by a fair margin.

Bonus of the T17 beating a vet double-Schreck Storm squad that ambushes it.

[Mysthalin]

We decided to ignore the first one, as we will ignore this one, because you used stun, which we specificaly advised you not to use.
Face it, stun will not be as plentily available in EiR as it is in CoH, if available at all(allies already have a button ability on infantry, no need to give it on tanks too).
And even with stun, the staghound was put to 15 hp each and every time. Even vet 1 or a bit more luck at penetrating would make the ostwind win.
As we said, do it with the T17 not using stun, it'll lose each time.

[Malevolence]

it works the same way as if you picked a different reinforcement package

A reinforcement package that nobody else can access without paying money.

Buy an advantage.

[Akranadas]

Have you played with these units in EIR?

Have you?

HAVE YOU?

No? Thought so.

So shut the fuck up.


I am sick and tired of reading about how we're destroying this mod with any little tiny change we make. It's like having someone constantly come up to you and sit in your food while you are cooking it for them. Can't you guys just be grateful that we're adding these in just in case you bought Tales of Valor in the off chance you want to use them.

[Malevolence]

Have you played with these units in EIR?

Have you?

HAVE YOU?

No? Thought so.

So shut the fuck up.

Logical fallacy - Ad Hominem
Logical fallacy - Non Sequitor, there is no relation between the "balance" of these units (which can only be ascertained through usage) and the fact that they are exclusive to certain accounts.

If you own ToV you will get access to additional options. Options in an RTS are an advantage. Ergo, by having options, you will have an advantage by default in company composition.

You only get these additional options with ownership of ToV, ergo you are purchasing a product and receiving an advantage, and I quote, "buy an advantage".

I am sick and tired of reading about how we're destroying this mod with any little tiny change we make. It's like having someone constantly come up to you and sit in your food while you are cooking it for them. Can't you guys just be grateful that we're adding these in just in case you bought Tales of Valor in the off chance you want to use them.

No, because you are imbalancing the game based on an outside factor (money), and as a player in this beta release of EiR:R it is my considered duty to inform you of this.