The Tiger – An endangered species…

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[Tymathee]

blitz tiger ace

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Ah, so it uses the villers_bocage_kwk36_88mm_tiger_gun_he. rgd?

Good to know.

[Tymathee]

hmm, i guess not because the Tiger Ace has a toggle, look for the Tiger Ace that has a toggle ability, one for HE and one for AT among other abilities like smoke, grenade launcher etc.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Then i think its the tiger_tankace.rgd
and it uses the kwk36_88mm_tiger_gun_pzgr.lua
but i cant seem to find the gun the HE thing uses.

[Marlboroman]

tiger ace uses panther gun for AP and regular tiger gun for HE

[Hicks58]

tiger ace uses panther gun for AP and regular tiger gun for HE

It does not.

I'd pull up the statistics for the Tiger Ace, but really, what's the point?

If it suddenly becomes available to people then I'll post away, but for the moment it's wasted energy.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Well do it for me?
Please?

[dailydose]

According to the "Tiger_tankace.rgd," the Tiger Ace has for his 1st hardpoint...

Wep. 1: kwk36_88mm_tiger_gun_pzgr.lua (Default)
Wep. 2: villers_bocage_kwk36_88mm_tiger_gun_reg ular.lua (Accessory)
Wep. 3: kwk36_88mm_tiger_gun_he.lua (Default)

So I'm assuming that it's default AP gun for the Tiger Ace is Wep. 1, which is replaced by Wep. 2 if you have a specific doctrine? What does the Default/Accessory do?

Hicks/Myst, by the power of the RGD God, I invoke thee.

[Hicks58]

If you haven't figured it out by tomorrow I'll tell you.

Meanwhile I'll go collapse in bed.

[Mysthalin]

I could tell you. Or I could have a few more beers and pass out.

Guess which one I've chosen?

[Hicks58]

The weapons that you found are for the most part correct.

The default weapon for the Tiger Ace is the Pzgr variation of the 88mm. It has 125 damage (vs 137.5 default) with much increased default penetration, very little splash and 5 more range.

The weapon that is linked to the HE rounds button (If you check the abilities section you'll see a unit ability for both tiger_ace_ammo_he and tiger_ace_ammo_pzgr) are essentially standard Tiger rounds. Same damage, same splash, same range, etc.

The villers_bocage_kwk36_88mm_tiger_gun_reg ular is unused and is probably a relic from when they were testing the unit and just left it hovering in the files. That tends to happen most often in reward units considering how little use they see. One look at the weapon file should tell you it aint used when you see 200-250 damage. The only direct fire weapon that even comes close to that kind of damage is the 88.

The Default/Accessory function is something you'd have to ask a Coder.

[dailydose]

Long Post with Stats--Summary/Impression and Suggestion is at the last paragraph
----------

I thought about the Tiger some more over the week, and since Hicks and I hit upon the idea of giving Tiger KT armor, I thought I'd compare the Tiger to the KT in-regards to the vital stats that govern combat-effectiveness. I thought comparing the Tiger and the KT was valid for a three reasons: 1) Both are Axis heavy tanks that require T3 Unlocks 2) Both are slow, large, and have poor turret rotation 3) the community generally seem to view the KT as being fairly balanced, so its stats must be doing something right.

I highlighted the Tiger stats in red which I think may warrant adjustment. Suggestions on the exact nature of the adjustment is at the end.

Movement
King Tiger
Accel: 1.6
Deccel: 2
Rotation: 27
Top Speed: 3

Tiger
Accel: 2
Deccel: 4
Rotation: 23
Top Speed: 4

Gun Comparison
Overall
KT: 45 range, 165 dmg.
Tiger: 40 range, 135 dmg
KT gun has same accuracy, but much higher pen. rate against all Allied armor.

Turret Traverse
KT: 15 (H), 30 (V)
Tiger: 19 (H), 10 (V)

Ready Aim Time:
KT: 0.5
Tiger 1.5
Both has post-aim time: 4

Reload
KT: 4.5min-5.5max
Tiger: 6 (5.1 with Panzer Ace)

Resource/Cost-effectiveness
Resource Ratio (Tiger/KT)
Manpower Only: 0.695
Manpower+Fuel: 0.743

HP Ratio (Tiger/KT)
1064/2000=0.532

Population
KT: 18
Tiger: 16


-----
Summary
From the numbers it is possible that the Tiger's ineffectiveness has much deeper roots than its short-range and low speed. The Tiger is held back not only by the aforementioned characteristic, but with a slow turn rate and poor target acquisition which prevents it from effectively engaging targets that manages to get in-range of its short-reach gun. Combined with poor accuracy--stationary and moving--as well as a slow rotation rate and weak armor (for its role and cost), the Tiger is definitely a sub-par equipment by a large margin.

Suggestion:
Just looking at the numbers, my uneducated suggestions are the following, with the justification following after it:

1. Give the Tiger KT armor (Tiger pen rate*0.8 ) - Necessary to give the Tiger the durability needed for its intended role as a breakthrough tank.

2. Reduce ready-aim time to 0.5 or 1s. - The rationale for giving the KT a quick ready-aim time applies to the Tiger. The Tiger also has a slow turret traverse--albeit, not as slow as the KT. However, the Tiger has a much shorter range so that targets are much more apt to slip out of range than it is for KT--a flaw that more than compensates for a marginally-faster turn rate. The Tiger should not also be afflicted with a slow ready-aim time especially when its short range intends for it to be amidst the fighting. Upgrade should apply to vanilla Tigers, or be applied with Panzer Ace when the commander is inside the turret.

3. Increase Vertical track speed. - Same reason as above.

4. Increase Tank Rotation to at least 27 to match the KT. Do not change accel/deccel or top-speed. - Changing the tank rotation allows the Tiger to present its front to the enemy more easily. Also, I think having the Tiger at least match the KT's rotation is intuitional.

5. Reduce the reload time to 5.5-5.8 seconds (4.675-4.93 with Panzer Ace) - The Tiger has very low accuracy and range compared to other tanks, so it needs to be able to put rounds down-range to compensate in terms of DPS. In addition, the reload-reduction from Panzer Ace isn't actually game breaking because 1) Panzer Ace is a T3 doctrine 2) WITH Panzer Ace, KT will still sometimes shoot faster than the Tiger and still do more damage 3) To utilize the lower reload time, the Tiger must sacrifice +10 sight and 33% accuracy bonus, meaning its shots revert to the original low accuracy. 4) the Tiger has a high scatter, with a 7.5 angle and 15 max scatter distance (KT has max scatter dist. of 8 ). The low accuracy of the Tiger--moving and stationary--and high scatter keeps the reload-reduction in balance--indeed, I see it more as bringing the Tiger up to the level of the other Heavy tanks.  --- This is the buff with the highest risk of breaking balance out of all the suggestions, in my opinion. Myst provided very good math as to why this would be a baaad idea.

6. Increase the Tiger's health to at least 1240, so that the HP-ratio is 0.62 instead of 0.532. - The Tiger costs almost 75% of the KT while only having 50% of the HP. HP increase would make the Tiger be more cost-effective compared to the KT while not being game-breaking due to the hard-limit of 2, as well as the short-range of the Tiger getting it hit more frequently by the enemy.
--------

As Hicks has already mentioned pages back, I believe that the Tiger does not need a range, damage, speed, or ground splash buff to make it worthwhile. The Tiger's problem doesn't seem to be its gun, but how the unit is wired to use that gun on the battlefield. Hence, most of the suggestions do not touch hard stats like range or speed, but reflex stats like ready-aim time or tank rotation. I think these suggestions will keep the Tiger's flavor while addressing the balance-issues that must be tackled.

That is my observation, in any case. Comments?

[Mysthalin]

Check KT accuracy vs infantry and compare vs Tiger before calling for gun changes (keeping in mind target table accuracy applies to splash - which is how heavy tanks generally dish out the hurt on infantry).

[dailydose]

I'm reading .4 for the KT vs .75 for Tiger against infantry.

In regards to the blast radius, KT has a short of .25 and a Med. of 2. Tiger has short of .5 and med. of 2. I left out long as Hicks said it is negligible.

KT does fire faster due to quicker reload, has a larger dmg percentage for the med blast (.5KT vs .35 Tiger) as well as larger base dmg, has quicker aim-time for the gun, and the lower accuracy is compensated somewhat by the tighter scatter (max scatter distance is 8 for KT, 15 for Tiger).

That's just what I figure, anyway.  

[Mysthalin]

And that accuracy makes all the difference in efficiency versus infantry mate.

Assuming both tanks shoot a shell which explodes to cover all 6 riflemen (regardless of which splash radius) the tables for the chance of men affected go as such:

                 KT           Tiger
0 men       4.67%        0.02%
1 man      18.66%       0.44%
2 men      31.10%       3.30%
3 men      27.65%       13.18%
4 men      13.82%       29.66%
5 men       3.69%       35.60%
6 men         0.4%       17.80%

You see the fundamental difference there? A tiger has a 233.35 times lower chance of dealing no damage whatsoever to the riflemen upon a splashing hit than the King tiger, while boasting a 44.5 time higher chance of splashing over everyone.

In fact, you can be 95% certain you'll splash at least 3 people with each shot when firing with a tiger, while the same certainty on the King tiger only yields "at least 1 guy". Taken from the other end of the spectrum - you can be 95% sure you'll splash 0-4 men with a KT. The tiger can just as certainly boast it might splash over everyone. (Understanding statistics on an academic level will help you wrap your head around this paragraph).

Which such a massive difference in potential of injury - the raw splash damage of the King Tiger ceases to matter. It simply never hits anything to be able to unleash it's splash damage potential.

[dailydose]

And that accuracy makes all the difference in efficiency versus infantry mate.

Assuming both tanks shoot a shell which explodes to cover all 6 riflemen (regardless of which splash radius) the tables for the chance of men affected go as such:

                 KT           Tiger
0 men       4.67%        0.02%
1 man      18.66%       0.44%
2 men      31.10%       3.30%
3 men      27.65%       13.18%
4 men      13.82%       29.66%
5 men       3.69%       35.60%
6 men         0.4%       17.80%

You see the fundamental difference there? A tiger has a 233.35 times lower chance of dealing no damage whatsoever to the riflemen upon a splashing hit than the King tiger, while boasting a 44.5 time higher chance of splashing over everyone.

In fact, you can be 95% certain you'll splash at least 3 people with each shot when firing with a tiger, while the same certainty on the King tiger only yields "at least 1 guy". Taken from the other end of the spectrum - you can be 95% sure you'll splash 0-4 men with a KT. The tiger can just as certainly boast it might splash over everyone. (Understanding statistics on an academic level will help you wrap your head around this paragraph).

Which such a massive difference in potential of injury - the raw splash damage of the King Tiger ceases to matter. It simply never hits anything to be able to unleash it's splash damage potential.

In which case a reload speed reduction would turn the Tiger into an AI machine gun shooting 88mm shells. Oops.

For future reference, what's the math behind your explosion table? I'm assuming it is some sort of mutually exclusive probability or a distribution function.

Does ready-aim time affect AI combat a lot, or is it more of a hit-probability issue?

[Mysthalin]

Look up binomial distribution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution

The basic formula is

A*x^y*(1-x)^z

Where:
A = number given by Pascal's triangle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_triangle)
x = probability of individual success
y = number of individual successes
(1-x) = probability of individual failure
z = number of individual failures.

As a result, when calculating the chance the KT would hit 2 people out of 6, missing 4 you'd have the formula:

10*0.4^2*0.6^4=0.3110 which can then be transformed into 31.10%

(have in mind I rounded the numbers for the table to the second decimal)

Ready Aim time is literally the time between the gun first locking onto it's target and it firing a shot. It's important when facing something fast that might pop out of the fire cone, or when you absolutely need to take the first shot. When facing infantry, though, it's usually not a very big deal.

[dailydose]

Look up binomial distribution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution

The basic formula is

A*x^y*(1-x)^z

Where:
A = number given by Pascal's triangle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_triangle)
x = probability of individual success
y = number of individual successes
(1-x) = probability of individual failure
z = number of individual failures.

As a result, when calculating the chance the KT would hit 2 people out of 6, missing 4 you'd have the formula:

10*0.4^2*0.6^4=0.3110 which can then be transformed into 31.10%

(have in mind I rounded the numbers for the table to the second decimal)

Ready Aim time is literally the time between the gun first locking onto it's target and it firing a shot. It's important when facing something fast that might pop out of the fire cone, or when you absolutely need to take the first shot. When facing infantry, though, it's usually not a very big deal.

So, other than the reload speed gaff--I crossed it out in the original post--is there anything too off-base about my suggestions, or are they in the ball-park somewhat?

[Mysthalin]

I'm of the opinion the tank rotation buff and the received penetration boost would go a long way in helping the tiger's poor pathing and becoming significantly more fearsome as a break-through tank (though I'd personally still go for 4.5 speed base or 0.75 moving acc instead of the armour boost, to be fair).

The fire-aim time really wouldn't mean much other than making the tiger marginally better at fending off circling M10s (not the optimal way to fight tigers anyway) and the vertical gun traverse boost would be so hard to notice it's not even really worth mentioning.