88s are retarded and should be nerfed.

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[DuckOfDoom]

88s are ridiculously overpowered, maybe not by themselves, but when used in conjunction with minimal support they are unstoppable. Last game I spent 18 minutes with my team mates knocking out an 88 with ITS HARD COUNTERS. No fucking unit should take 18 minutes to die to its natural counter. Not a single fucking one.

Lets review:

What are the natural counter to an 88?

- (cloaked sniper for spotting +) mortar
- Artillery
- Infantry rush w/smoke
- light vehicles that can out run 88s turn radius

Now lets examine how an 88 can be EASILY supported with minimal crew to ensure that it is never ever captured or can only be destroyed by a lucky artillery shot.

- Mg counters any infantry rushes. Even when the infantry is covered by smoke, the 88 will provide the crew with green cover to prevent decrewing.
- Mortar/mortar ht will easily counter any allied mortar as it has a significantly longer range. Not to mention, that with a pitiful allied mortar range, an 88 can easily destroy the mortar with a single shot if no cover is available for the allied mortar.
- Snipers get spotted by bikes/kettens and killed in seconds - and when was the last time you have seen an 88 without a spotting bike/ketten?
- On- map artillery cant fucking hit an 88 even when its being spotted by another unit. Off-map artillery can hit it, but unfortunately NETHER artillery has the firepower to destroy an 88 with a single barrage. As the 88 can miraculously regenerate its health (not the crew, the gun itself) for some unknown reason this method is completely negated by the 88 effectively tanking your artillery (unless allies have an ungodly amount of artillery on the field).
- Light vehicle rushes can be stopped by a tiny piece of difficult terrain that can slow down its movement. Since the 88s can turn relatively fast, even the minimal amount of support, such as a panzershrek squad, can help stop an orbiting light vehicle.
- 88s usually have stand by recrewing volks/luft nearby, so nearly decrewing it is not enough.

Evidence to support this:

- 88s will consistently get 20+ kills when they are deployed. The only other unit that is capable of getting that high of a kill score CONSISTENTLY is a well microed sniper.
- 88s can track a full speed m10 orbiting it.
- 88s very rarely miss, even at extreme ranges.
- 88s were never THIS popular.

Suggested nerfs (pick one, all would undermind it significantly.):

- 88s turning speed needs to be significantly nerfed. There is no reason an 88 should turn faster then a locked down marder, yet at the moment an 88 can easily track a full speed m10.
- The gun itself on the 88 SHOULD NOT HEAL BY ITSELF OR EITHER BY VETERANCY OR SOME OTHER EFFECT. Either give the 88 repair kits, or drop the repair altogether. Its completely retarded that an 88 can repair itself given how hard it is to knock out already.
- 88 should have a much higher received damage and  accuracy from incoming artillery. At the moment a DIRECT hit from a howitzer will do less then 10% of the 88s damage, which if retarded. Artillery is a natural hard counter to an 88, and allied artillery DOES NOT get the benefit of self repair or nigh unkillable crew.

As it is, an 88 effectively shuts down 33-50% (depending on impassable cover) of a 2v2 map even with minimal ( 10 pop) support and requires no micro to be used effectively. This is a death sentence if the axis are defending, by attrition alone. 88s were fair in R+ games because there was a chance to intercept and destroy them BEFORE they were set up.When axis have 3 minutes to set up, nothing can prevent an 88 from going up.

Another point is the lack of the allied artillery on the field at present. 25pnds are worthless with their tiny range (an 88 can and does outrage them) , howitzers take 4+ minutes to set up and fire, priests are 150pps away. Off map artillery is generally pretty unreliable.

[EliteGren]

Post a replay showing how OP it is.

[Mysthalin]

I will only agree to the fact it shouldn't heal itself with vet 1.

Other than that, it's completely fine and counterable - if you can't breach it, just load up a few halftracks with vanilla riflemen and take looong back-capping routes. If it's a 2v2, just keep artying their support units, not the 88 itself, you'll be fine.

[DuckOfDoom]

I will only agree to the fact it shouldn't heal itself with vet 1.

I edited the OP to reflect that only 1 nerf from the list is actually needed to bring it more in-line.

[Unkn0wn]

- 88s turning speed needs to be significantly nerfed. There is no reason an 88 should turn faster then a locked down marder, yet at the moment an 88 can easily track a full speed m10.

Can't without vet AFAIK

- The gun itself on the 88 SHOULD NOT HEAL BY ITSELF OR EITHER BY VETERANCY OR SOME OTHER EFFECT

This is probably the most important change that needs to happen, I'll bring it up with the others.

[DasNoob]

No Prob,

I'll just park my healing HT next to it for my partner like I already do

Starting posts like this:

I am seriously considering taking a long, long break from eir because as it is, I have had nearly every single game I had played ruined by an unreachable flak 88.

Make everyone tune out.

[DuckOfDoom]

Can't without vet AFAIK

If the bonus is at vet 2 or 3 then I can agree with it. However, the 88 xp requirements are really low given how quickly it can accumulate xp. I believe an 88 needs 44 xp (same as all support weapons) to reach vet 3. This doesnt seem right to me (that said, nether does the 50 xp vet 3 howitzer)

Make everyone tune out.

I am pretty bitter right now.

[Duckordie]

Yeah yeah, nerf the 88, its easy to kill as it is now

[brn4meplz]

DUCK FIGHT!

[Mysthalin]

88s just need to not be able to heal the gun, is all.

[Duckordie]

I totally agree you should not be able to heal the 88 or repair it,
Also at vet 1 it should not self-heal.

the more axis gets nerfed the better.
And Yes I play Allies and I just love to keep winning my games, ahhh, I enjoy this

[Malgoroth]

Not heal the gun? What... ever? Not even purchased repairs?

The thing is completely immobile. It's not going to go anywhere AND it needs LOS to shoot at anything, so it's not like a howie which can reach across an entire map to insta gib a squad.

[CafeMilani]

allies will have enough offmaps to drop on 88s when unlocked, this thread is pointless imo.

[Duckordie]

Shhhh Let them nerf it

[CafeMilani]

lol yeah. i bet theyll nerf it because 10 guys stick together and cry: "OPed!"

[wildsolus]

allies will have enough offmaps to drop on 88s when unlocked

offmaps generally just kill the crew not the gun..

[Pak75mm]

winds 88 raped duck hard....i guess he came to cry at the right place lol

[Duckordie]

Please use Duck of doom and not Duck, Duck is referring to me. Due I am thro Law the Duck in here.

And as i posted before, 88 Sould get buffed, but since i play Allies I don't care any more

[RikiRude]

axis, precision strike = no more crew or V1 = no more howie. can also use storms to get over there and kill it, or any kind of armor rush though it's risky. there are actually quite a few ways to deal with howies.

allies, any arty MIGHT decrew the 88, but there is never a guarantee, and you def wont kill the gun, especially when it's vet 1. also best way to take them down is AB with satchel charge, just hope they don't have anything covering it. either way it'll most likely be a suicide of those AB. other then that the only way to really deal with an 88 is to decrew then rush it. or just avoid that side of the map, wait for them to bring all their forces to the opposite side of the map, then sneak attack the 88. either way it usually takes a lot more for the allies to take down an 88 then to take down a howie.

In fact id be more likely to compare the 88 to the calliope in difficulty to destroy vs killing power. problem is, one is a T1 and the other is a T3, so one is quite a bit more common then the other.

[AmPM]

One is also mobile, and can destroy and infantry advancement or armor single handed, the other is a static emplacement that is only hard to avoid on maps like RTC.

In fact, I went up against one on Vengeance, Allies attacking, it had a Flakveirling and infantry support. I had to circle the entire map, but finally got my commando piats into range, they killed it in about 10 seconds....as in completely gone.

Then the Allied armor column rolled up, game over.