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Author Topic: [WM] 2 cm/5.0 cm Puma  (Read 15572 times)
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NightRain Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3931



« on: October 10, 2011, 11:26:42 am »

Will someone do something to these two variants. As far as I know- they are the most...saddest sights in EIRR.

Their moving accuracy, long range accuracy and their damage is so small that  before it kills a single thing it dies itself. Not only that but the Stuart light tank costs only more in manpower compared to a Upgun puma and it is awfully powerful with RE.

For facts: There aren't many Doc buffs to improve Pumas survivability nor its offensive capilities. It can't attack all that well nor can it kill infantry- neither of the variants. Ontop of it both variants loses to allied light vehicles.

Is there any future for this sad toy?
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RoyalHants Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2124



« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2011, 11:29:23 am »

Is there any future for this sad toy?
No
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Yeah calbanes, I mean - some people like smokaz are still yet to win a single game, even though they've been around here for years.

TheVolskinator Offline
Administrator / Lead Developer
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Posts: 3051



« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2011, 11:32:43 am »

Ive actually used the 50mm to great effect against even churchills, the key is to use two of them and to attack and pick off lone targets. The 50mm puma can also snipe infantry on a fairly regular basis but has almost no splash to deal truly devastating damage.

The 20mm puma is a sad, sorry sight. I suggest simply giving it the 20mm weapon used by the PE AC, which is vastly superior in accuracy and damage dealt (it focuses on a single squad member until it is dead, whereas the WM 20mm weapon tends to fire at all members of a squad; in a 6 round burst theres a good chance it will just clip every member of a riflesquad once), and giving that weapon the puma's rate of fire (slightly faster then the PE AC's). So a modded 20mm_PE_AC (name taken from coh-stats).

The 50mm...i dont really know; have it not phase as much and increase the penetration so that it will regularly penetrate a sherman frontally and it should be fine.

As it stands I agree, both are pretty meh units.
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Shabtajus Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2593


The very best player of one of the four factions.

« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2011, 11:47:22 am »

WM got better tanks and allies got better LV right? So give allies better tanks and buff pumas. Deal?
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I feel like if Smokaz and Shab met up it would be a 50/50 tossup to see which one of them robbed the other first.
Tries to convince people he's a good guy,says things like this. Scumbag Shab.
smurfORnot Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4719



« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2011, 11:52:36 am »

so I guess allies tanks are so bad,that no one uses them,right?  Roll Eyes
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Shabtajus Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2593


The very best player of one of the four factions.

« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2011, 12:02:31 pm »

nah they r good but axis tanks r better plus support. just saying it would be stupid give more strong units to axis. atm game lobby is filled of axis players cauz its funnier to play as axis. but i gues every1 is interested in to get a game not just sit in lobby and wait. and buffing axis means longer time to get a game
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smurfORnot Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4719



« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2011, 12:09:46 pm »

buffing it to make it useful is completely another thing. Since there is no point in having unit that almost no one uses since it complete crap. Might as well just remove it then. It's not that axis would cry much for such loss...
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AmPM Offline
Community Mapper
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Posts: 8001



« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2011, 12:12:00 pm »

nah they r good but axis tanks r better plus support. just saying it would be stupid give more strong units to axis. atm game lobby is filled of axis players cauz its funnier to play as axis. but i gues every1 is interested in to get a game not just sit in lobby and wait. and buffing axis means longer time to get a game

Sherman upgun is better than p4, m10/m18 are the best tds in game. M18 can deal with infantry too with its .50.

Tanks are equal, Axis has more heavies, allies have better mediums and tds.

However, no unit should be so bad as to be unused, the Puma is that bad.
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PonySlaystation Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4168



« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2011, 12:20:34 pm »

This has been discussed for ages

everyone agreed that it was underpowered

yet nothing has been done...


It's not hard to see why it's underpowered. In vCoH the M8, the Stug and the Puma all had one thing in common, they were not very useful without the upgrades. The Stug and the Puma had the veterancy upgrades that made them good. The M8 had the skirts and gunner.

In EIR the Stug and the M8 both have their upgrades but the Puma has none. Is it not quite obvious why it's so underpowered?
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TheVolskinator Offline
Administrator / Lead Developer
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Posts: 3051



« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2011, 12:39:29 pm »

Did my suggestions fall on deaf ears?

Stug is kinda fail, even in EiR with upgrades. It misses sooooo often, even tanks...its still good for its cost, and the same can NOT be said about the puma platform. It needs a WEAPONS buff, nothing should be changed in regards to HP, armor, or speed. Nor should the puma come on par with an M8, but it needs to be better. Atm id rather take two bikes then a puma.
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Shabtajus Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2593


The very best player of one of the four factions.

« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2011, 01:04:52 pm »

Sherman upgun is better than p4, m10/m18 are the best tds in game. M18 can deal with infantry too with its .50.

Tanks are equal, Axis has more heavies, allies have better mediums and tds.

However, no unit should be so bad as to be unused, the Puma is that bad.
well up gun means u have to buy it? and p4 is better  than sherman non upgraded. anyway there is panther and heavies as u mentioned but support like WM have is a key to power of axis tanks. atm is still harder to kill p4 than sherman cauz of support choices in WM side. now give good LV to axis... agree that puma sux balls but allies need better support for tanks.. Ok hvap or AP rounds u can say but i think its not so good as stormies.my point is no LV for WM cauz it will be nightmare PE+WM with good LV
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smurfORnot Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4719



« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2011, 01:10:52 pm »

Quote
my point is no LV for WM

so we should then remove puma,right?
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Shabtajus Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2593


The very best player of one of the four factions.

« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2011, 01:18:22 pm »

use ostwind?

it will be just to hard to play allies. i am not axis or allies fan boy. just wanna fair fight when u win having better micro or tactic not having  better units
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 01:20:27 pm by Shabtajus » Logged
Jodomar Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 741


« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2011, 02:57:54 pm »

The puma's do really suck and should be buffed. Hell even the ostwind is fail because it never hits anything. All an ostwind does is go "ooooo look at me, I'm a scary ostwind run away now because all I can really do is make pretty browns hole colors in the dirt. Maybe a riflemans will walk accidentally into my brutally inaccurate gun fire". You could also go with "oooo look at me I'm a stummel, a now absolutely worthless unit that it's only purpose in life is to feed allies more vet". The puma is just too said now, that it doesn't even need a "ooo look at me" because it is just that much fail. Three 20 mm puma's failed to kill a standing still airborne squad as they all eventually died to said airborne squad. What happened to the puma? It used to be able to kill things, now it is utter fail. I say switch out the ostwind for wirblewinds, change the puma 20 mm to match the pe armor car, and buff the dmg slightly on the up-gun puma. For the stummel, It needs to go back to its all gun but make the unit slower and give it a slower accel/deccel. This way it would not be able to zoom out away from at gun's and it would be balanced. I think the dev's need to look outside the box sometimes when it comes to unit balance instead of making said unit utter and complete crap.
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Hicks58 Offline
Development
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Posts: 5423



« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2011, 03:08:31 pm »

Put the Stummel back to it's old gun?

You really don't realise what the Stummel was capable of, do you?

Granted, it's pretty crap in it's current form but that doesn't mean it should return to the right hand of God.

Also, the Ostwind is more than capable of killing enemies, close to medium range rather than trying to snipe at long range and avoid infantry entrenched in cover. The Ostwind is at best a deterrent to infantry at long range, but will murder them at close range, medium range if you catch them without cover.

I can agree that Puma's do suck quite a bit at the moment and need a leg up, but try to remember that Puma's, Upgunned Puma's, Greyhounds, so on and so forth are all cheap LV's... They should only be so effective. Try to avoid doing the reverse of what happened to the Stummel and utterly over buff Pumas.
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I mean I know Obama was the first one in EiR to get a card. and tbfh the Race card is pretty OP. but Romney has the K.K.K., those guys seem to camo anywhere. So OP units from both sides.
At the end of the day, however, stormtroopers finally got the anal invasion with a cactus they have richly deserved for years.
DarkSoldierX Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3041



« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2011, 03:24:20 pm »

The puma's do really suck and should be buffed. Hell even the ostwind is fail because it never hits anything. All an ostwind does is go "ooooo look at me, I'm a scary ostwind run away now because all I can really do is make pretty browns hole colors in the dirt. Maybe a riflemans will walk accidentally into my brutally inaccurate gun fire". You could also go with "oooo look at me I'm a stummel, a now absolutely worthless unit that it's only purpose in life is to feed allies more vet". The puma is just too said now, that it doesn't even need a "ooo look at me" because it is just that much fail. Three 20 mm puma's failed to kill a standing still airborne squad as they all eventually died to said airborne squad. What happened to the puma? It used to be able to kill things, now it is utter fail. I say switch out the ostwind for wirblewinds, change the puma 20 mm to match the pe armor car, and buff the dmg slightly on the up-gun puma. For the stummel, It needs to go back to its all gun but make the unit slower and give it a slower accel/deccel. This way it would not be able to zoom out away from at gun's and it would be balanced. I think the dev's need to look outside the box sometimes when it comes to unit balance instead of making said unit utter and complete crap.

Your argument is invalid when it doesn't make sense, I mean its not opinion but facts you disregard.

Puma 20mm = AC 20mm, they were equalized (AC was worse) a few patches ago.

Puma hasn't been directly nerfed. And its metagame isn't damaged either.

Now opinion wise, Ostwind is probably one of the best AI vehicles in the game. I mean it can kill a rifleman squad with ease when they decide to come closer than long range, keeping your support safe from alot of infantry assaults.

Strummels could use a buff, but definitely not the old super OP weapon they had.

Puma does do fine for its cost, just that its has to harass more often.
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*waiting* 4 DarkSoldierNoobiX pops up to prove how much shit the T17 is penetrating KTs back and Jagd front and how much better the ac/puma is penetrating m10 rear  Cool Cool Cool
PonySlaystation Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4168



« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2011, 04:04:30 pm »

Puma 20mm = AC 20mm, they were equalized (AC was worse) a few patches ago.

Just because the gun is the same doesn't mean that they are the same. The PE armored car is faster, more maneuverable, cheaper and most importantly it's actually being used, meaning it actually has some use, unlike the Puma.

Puma hasn't been directly nerfed. And its metagame isn't damaged either.

It's very underpowered, it's never used and it has been directly nerfed. Phase armor was changed and it doesn't have the things that made it good in vCoH. It's kind of like if you make a mod and include riflemen but don't give them BARs. Obviously they're gonna suck compared to Grenadiers armed with LMGs.

Puma does do fine for its cost, just that its has to harass more often.

What? It's probably one of the least used units in the mod. Smart players simply understand that it's not worth the price. There are other units which are much more cost-effective units like Grenadiers and Ostwinds. Yes, it's overpriced. No, it's not fine for it's cost.
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Malgoroth Offline
Donator
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Posts: 961


« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2011, 05:03:49 pm »

They way I see it is the Wehrmacht do have the better tanks than the Americans, so giving them powerful light vehicles would tip the balance too much. British tanks on the other hand can handle themselves quite nicely against Wehr tanks, and they have powerful LVs to boot. But the Wehr is hardly helpless against them so giving them better light vehicles even in that case is still somewhat unwarranted.

Pumas are the kinds of units where you get like... 2 if you have the spare fuel and use them in conjunction with bigger/better tanks to help kill annoying targets. Like... there's a firefly sniping at your p4, or a fat ass cock sucking churchill being stupid, you could use a flanking 50 puma to help the p4 bring it down. They aren't completely useless, but they aren't the kind of unit you would prioritize in your micro.
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Tymathee Offline
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Posts: 9757



« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2011, 05:26:01 pm »

exactly. Like mal said, puma's are great support units but are not to be used like m8's and quads mainly because of how hard the main allied at, the 57 hits. 2-3 shots and its done.

I used to run a fun 50mm puma spam company before i discovered the power of the ostwind.

but heres the thing...how do u buff a puma? if u give it too much acc or dmg, you will have them raping squads, not enugh and it does nothing.

maybe give the 20mm puma added suppression (which will make it a lil more useful and at the same time lower its damage output) and the 50mm more range possibly? this is as a buff not to the normal unit but a doc ability.

and if the 50mm range could be buffed as an ability, then 2.5 (42.5) would be my suggestion, just enough to make sure it gets the first shost and enough to get away sometimes but not enough to kite most shots but just some.
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AmPM Offline
Community Mapper
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Posts: 8001



« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2011, 07:00:57 pm »

exactly. Like mal said, puma's are great support units but are not to be used like m8's and quads mainly because of how hard the main allied at, the 57 hits. 2-3 shots and its done.

I used to run a fun 50mm puma spam company before i discovered the power of the ostwind.

but heres the thing...how do u buff a puma? if u give it too much acc or dmg, you will have them raping squads, not enugh and it does nothing.

maybe give the 20mm puma added suppression (which will make it a lil more useful and at the same time lower its damage output) and the 50mm more range possibly? this is as a buff not to the normal unit but a doc ability.

and if the 50mm range could be buffed as an ability, then 2.5 (42.5) would be my suggestion, just enough to make sure it gets the first shost and enough to get away sometimes but not enough to kite most shots but just some.

Or simply reduce its price and pop to fit it's ability instead of making it more deadly...
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