88s are retarded and should be nerfed.

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[Sharpshooter824]

uhh you can't kill the truck in allied attack 

[EliteGren]

Recon + Offmap.

[Tymathee]

the  problem I personally have with 88's is that 8 out of 10 games I play, someone has one. It gets really annoyng and it just becomes an arty fest on both sides, with the axis spamming mortar's, nebels and stukas last game i played, there were at least 5-6 different mortars on the field, we killed 3, 2 more were brought on, killed a mortar ht another came in.

It's just really annoying and yes, nerf the 88, we got our howie nerfed because of ONE! person coming in and saying how he could exploit it and now we have a 120 second timer when its built so now it becomes almost useless because we have to wait two minutes to fire, why not just 30 or 60 seconds? 120 seconds is just way too long and it really affects how the allies play against 88's because we can't just barrage it right away.

and yes, 88's have been around since old EIR but they also cost more back then, I think like 500mp and 300fu (not exact of course but something like that).

So basically, you could choose to field an 88 you'd somewhat cripple your unit fielding power.

and if somehow the gun can be healed, that's just wrong.

also, to anyone who thinks that the allies have better ways of getting rid of 88's than axis do of getting rid of howitzers, they're wrong. For one, 88's have more health on their gun.

88 = 325 Health
Howie = 250 health

and when you figure in that allied anti tank weapons other than the at gun cause more damage than their allied counter parts, basically figure in schreck vs bazooka

schreck vs howie 3 shots
bazooka vs 88 5 shots

it's a lot harder to kill an 88. Then ther'es precision strike when can take out the gun and/or the crew. Rocket arty which WILL take out everything. V1's...duh. Firestorm, take's out crew and sometimes gun. Stuka, takes out crew and/or gun. Nebel, crew, longer ranged mortar's, crew. hummel, gun just needs one shot (done this alot myself)

vs their allied counter part off-maps, which more than likely just do the crew unless its foo which can take out the gun, maybe. I'm sorry but you can't compare the two.

[COHSuperman]

Recon + Offmap. what he said and besides  bring out arty that is what allies are know for

[Tymathee]

Just curious, but how effective would it be to call in 2 88s in a 3v3 or 2v2 attack and defend scenario? (while the axis is the defenders)

usually ther's only oen good spot to put an 88 in any given map. also, you spread ur defenses thin cuz usually the other player is the guy that needs to roam around and stop the backcapping and help to defend the 88.

[Tymathee]

Recon + Offmap.

and kill the crew and then they recrew it, atm, you can only get one off-map, so it's pointless unless you can somehow force fire and take out the gun or take it urself.

[Latios418]

Too many people still playing RTC =)

Most ignorant statement about the Flak36 ever. Nearly every 2v2 map has a really, really, really good spot for them where they can lock down the entire width of the map and a large area in front of/behind them.

[Jazlizard]

Part of me doesn't understand why decrewing the 88 seems like a non-accomplishment. Once you decrew it, don't stop, attack it!  It takes a while for the unit on standby, if there is one, to recrew it and fire again, in that amount of time you can usually overwhelm the area.

Most folks don't have exta AT nearby their 88, if they do it's likely just an at gun anyways, just rush it, blow it up, or hell recrew it your dam self if you can, I've seen it done. Once the position is overrun you've likely taken out quite a few support units relying on the 88 for AT, as well as, the potential stragglers that come to help reclaim it if you do it right.

As much as an 88 can win the game, it can also lose someone the game in the blink of an eye.

[Baine]

Look, we already had a thread like this, was it really necessary to do another?




Howitzers are retarded and should be nerfed. I mean, I'm so close to quitting EiR because of them, SO CLOSE!

They are placed so far back, i cannot reach them, and they kill all my units with each barrage! I mean, that thing has ultra long range, wtf? Nebel only has short range and wide spread, Howitzer is op.
I mean hello? You can't attack it, because it will be so well supported, you can't do shit.
Allies will have rangers all around and a fucking triage that heals the gun and the crew, i mean wtf?
And if i kill the crew they can just reman it, and if I try to mortar it, it will shoot the mortar to hell!

Seriously you devs have to stop the Howitzer spam, like 10 out of 10 games i have seen them, and you can't stop them from building, if they defend, omg, they have 3 minutes to fortify it!
And if they attack, then wtf, they just build it at their spawn and start shooting, i mean hello?

In my opinion my flamer pios should totally be able to kill the howitzer and everything with it.

But guys, please tell me how to kill howitzers, because i don't have any offmaps and can't think of a way to deal with it.



[/sarcasm]

[Sharpshooter824]

uhh yes your sarcasm but if howitzers are so far back how are they supported  unless you are about to lose because you have 10% of the map lulz

[Tymathee]

flamer pios need a nerf too :-p freakin things dont surpress as fast as engies do it seems

[stumpster]

They don't.  Engineers have the worst suppression resistance in the game, unless that was changed while I was gone.

[Tymathee]

They don't.  Engineers have the worst suppression resistance in the game, unless that was changed while I was gone.

ahh okay then. bummer. can't really use them like the axis do with their pio's then hmm...

[Malevolence]

They don't.  Engineers have the worst suppression resistance in the game, unless that was changed while I was gone.

Engies were given that to prevent engineer spam (in addition with a ludicrous upkeep cost) in CoH beta. Pretty good solution for retail, and gives us a point on engineers to buff with veterancy.

Now lets examine how an 88 can be EASILY supported with minimal crew to ensure that it is never ever captured or can only be destroyed by a lucky artillery shot.

- Mg counters any infantry rushes. Even when the infantry is covered by smoke, the 88 will provide the crew with green cover to prevent decrewing.

You can have two squads of infantry for one 88 + one MG in terms of pop. Go flank plz.

- Mortar/mortar ht will easily counter any allied mortar as it has a significantly longer range. Not to mention, that with a pitiful allied mortar range, an 88 can easily destroy the mortar with a single shot if no cover is available for the allied mortar.

12 pop countering 4 pop? SAY IT AIN'T SO?!

- Snipers get spotted by bikes/kettens and killed in seconds - and when was the last time you have seen an 88 without a spotting bike/ketten?

Unless you're implying that the 88 gibs it (which is possible but unlikely) upon being spotted, you need the bike. 11 pop vs 7? Bike kills sniper with or without the 88 there anyway.

On- map artillery cant fucking hit an 88 even when its being spotted by another unit. Off-map artillery can hit it, but unfortunately NETHER artillery has the firepower to destroy an 88 with a single barrage. As the 88 can miraculously regenerate its health (not the crew, the gun itself) for some unknown reason this method is completely negated by the 88 effectively tanking your artillery (unless allies have an ungodly amount of artillery on the field).

Quite the contrary, yes it can. The gun is healed by vet 1 at a rate of .028 (I believe) HP per second. Well, then, if you care to wait two hours, then yes, the healing will be a problem as a single howitzer's damage will be negated. Literally two hours.

- Light vehicle rushes can be stopped by a tiny piece of difficult terrain that can slow down its movement. Since the 88s can turn relatively fast, even the minimal amount of support, such as a panzershrek squad, can help stop an orbiting light vehicle.

It's the game's biggest anti-tank gun and you complain about it stopping vehicle rushes WITH supporting panzerschreks? That only makes sense, man.
 

- 88s usually have stand by recrewing volks/luft nearby, so nearly decrewing it is not enough.

Most units that cost 450 manpower and 220 fuel have recrew units nearby, such as mr 105mm howitzer.

Evidence to support this:

- 88s will consistently get 20+ kills when they are deployed. The only other unit that is capable of getting that high of a kill score CONSISTENTLY is a well microed sniper.
- 88s can track a full speed m10 orbiting it.
- 88s very rarely miss, even at extreme ranges.
- 88s were never THIS popular.

An 88, like any artillery piece, gets a lot of kills? You don't say.
An 88mm anti-tank/flak artillery emplacement can kill a tank? No way!
The 88mm has slightly less than a 50% chance to hit most still infantry. Moving infantry dips below 25% chance, plus cover.

As it is, an 88 effectively shuts down 33-50% (depending on impassable cover) of a 2v2 map even with minimal ( 10 pop) support and requires no micro to be used effectively. This is a death sentence if the axis are defending, by attrition alone. 88s were fair in R+ games because there was a chance to intercept and destroy them BEFORE they were set up.When axis have 3 minutes to set up, nothing can prevent an 88 from going up.

I bet if I turned my 8 pop flak into two 4 pop Pak 38's I would lock down the same section of map just as well.

Another point is the lack of the allied artillery on the field at present. 25pnds are worthless with their tiny range (an 88 can and does outrage them) , howitzers take 4+ minutes to set up and fire, priests are 150pps away. Off map artillery is generally pretty unreliable.

105mm doesn't have the cooldown initially as proposed and supposedly implemented.
25pndr needs supercharged rounds.
Off map artillery will consistently land a single round (at least) on target.

An 88mm is a very odd beast. It acts as the game's only direct fire flat trajectory artillery piece. Deal with it as such (e.g. 25lber anti-tank mode in one of the doctrines...)

[DasNoob]

If we are doing  about 88s and now talking about pio/eng then maybe this thread should just be laid to rest?

[Tymathee]

meh...88's suck. Went into pios and engines cuz its an option to use to take out 88 and howie crews.

[gamesguy2]

Half of you have apparently never used smoke before.

Scout with jeep/recon, drop smoke, run in with two squads of piats/RR/bazookas.

One volley 88.  You'll take some lossses if hes smart enough to keep a flamer nearby, but now you can run in a tank, laugh at the one shrek or pak or whatever he had supporting the 88, and kill everything else.

[BeRzErKeR]

Half of you have apparently never used smoke before.

Scout with jeep/recon, drop smoke, run in with two squads of piats/RR/bazookas.

One volley 88.  You'll take some lossses if hes smart enough to keep a flamer nearby, but now you can run in a tank, laugh at the one shrek or pak or whatever he had supporting the 88, and kill everything else.

What if he has more then 1 squads to support the 88?

[gamesguy2]

Half of you have apparently never used smoke before.

Scout with jeep/recon, drop smoke, run in with two squads of piats/RR/bazookas.

One volley 88.  You'll take some lossses if hes smart enough to keep a flamer nearby, but now you can run in a tank, laugh at the one shrek or pak or whatever he had supporting the 88, and kill everything else.

What if he has more then 1 squads to support the 88?

Then you run in anti-infantry because most of his popcap is tied up in AT.

Either way the 88 is dead, so if you can't take on a defensive position with no 88, then its not the 88's fault.

The present problems mainly stem from an imbalance with attack/defend.  Once the attacker pop cap bonus is fixed and maybe the defender setup timer is reduced, it won't be a problem.

[LeoPhone]

id like to see that its turning speed get a nerf. right now you dont even have to watch it, it can kill 2 shermans in its own. decrease its rotating speed, so any tank can circlestrafe it. make it a long range weapon as its intended, and make it go dead by anything at close range without support. right now its so strong, and you dont need to put any attention to it, like you have to do with a tank.