Jadgpanther

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[EliteGren]

Right now I dont think KT is viable either, run over a mine and you'll have to waste your repair just for repairing the engine.
Same with Jagd.

[Guderian]

Right now I dont think KT is viable either, run over a mine and you'll have to waste your repair just for repairing the engine.
Same with Jagd.

Okey fuck it, i'm going to play monkey island

[Schultz]

As mentioned before, it will be a total waste of resources to use this unit. With the new repair system as much as i would want to use it again you cant afford to have it immobilized by a stickie or mine.
Jagd cant defend itself against infantry rushes, its range is low etc etc.
Its really a waste. Giving it a major decrease in pop maybe solve it, if you are given enough pop to support it.
I think the problem lies in seeing it as a big tank (tiger, kt) when in reality its just a strong at weapon and nothing more.
If this definition is what you are planning to keep then buff its AI capabilities somehow at least, along with its range and pop..

[Scyn]

Well.. It is a big tank.. lower it's pop too much, comes on the field too soon and the allies can't field enough AT to kill it.

[Killer344]

Wow, just backcap him then, the jagd can´t effectively kill infantry, a panther start is a lot more hard to deal with.

[Smokaz]

I disagree, a half-dead vet 1 rifle squad, a jeep and a 57mm can keep the jagd away indefinitely. It can't circle effectively, it can't hit infantry very well and it has a neglible splash, it can't spot on its own, as proven to me by the hilarious moans of schultz in a game I played with him: "Repair the jagd! Spot for the jagd! Support the jagd! Help the jagd! I cant use the jagd" and so on.

You need very little at to keep a jagd away, I would go as far to say that a panther is a bigger threat to your non-armor units because of the lack of a turret and its sluggishness.

I agree with Schultz that its a definition issue. Either put it down to panther population cost (which still would be much for whats basically a beefy marder) or make it all-purpose. At any rate, give the Jagd a prominent role in the TB doctrine. Right now I wouldn't dream of doing anything but spamming fin stabilized double shrek clowncars for AT in that doctrine with the occasional hetzer support.

Why not move the veterancy +range values you guys had for the PE panthers to the jagd? At vet 3 it will be a beast against at guns and other armor while retaining a unique flavour and a serious weakness to infantry and swarms and tank disablers. Just keep the sight range so that you need spotters.

[Smokaz]

Well.. It is a big tank.. lower it's pop too much, comes on the field too soon and the allies can't field enough AT to kill it.

I disagree, a half-dead vet 1 rifle squad, a jeep and a 57mm can keep the jagd away indefinitely. It can't circle effectively, it can't hit infantry very well and it has a neglible splash, it can't spot on its own, as proven to me by the hilarious moans of schultz in a game I played with him: "Repair the jagd! Spot for the jagd! Support the jagd! Help the jagd! I cant use the jagd" and so on.

You need very little at to keep a jagd away, I would go as far to say that a panther is a bigger threat to your non-armor units because of the jagds lack of a turret and its sluggishness.

I agree with Schultz that its a definition issue. Either put it down to panther population cost (which still would be much for whats basically a beefy marder) or make it all-purpose. At any rate, give the Jagd a prominent role in the TB doctrine. Right now I wouldn't dream of doing anything but spamming fin stabilized double shrek clowncars for AT in that doctrine with the occasional hetzer support.

Why not move the veterancy +range values you guys had for the PE panthers to the jagd? At vet 3 it will be a beast against at guns and other armor while retaining a unique flavour and a serious weakness to infantry and swarms and tank disablers. Just keep the sight range so that you need spotters.

/pats himself on the back for a good idea

[Scyn]

Well if we follow that logic.. I may as well increase the Panther to 20 pop since it's so god damn useful in comparsion, right?

And no.. I'm not giving any tank 70 range.

[Smokaz]

Eh, panther isn't exactly the master of anti inf and at gun combat. It also doesnt have much more HP than a sherman. If you are struggling against panthers, well.. I doubt you are but you shouldn't be. I have never seen panthers being put to good use in EIRR cause any allied player worth his salt just pulls back the type of armor which can't beat the panther and then 1 or 2 at guns just completely nullifies it.

Dogma of the current EIRR: Big pop specialist units fails, small pop specialist units own, medium pop generalist units spammed owns

The same dogma in example units

Big pop specialist fail: Tigers, Panther, jagdpanther, firefly+cct (FF can excel against other big pop specialist units but not in general for pop)

Exception: King tigers and pershings. King tiger because, yo you cant damage me and all your attention goes my way. Pershings because of attrition tied to doctrine/repairs/buffs

Small pop specialist units that own: piat commandos, mgs, paks, at guns, snipers, mortars, nebels, inf hts, commandos

medium pop generalists that own: p4s, shermans, hetzers, cromwells, grenadiers, airborne*

*spammed and with nade


 I wasn't saying the Panther was any good, I was comparing the Jagd and the Panther which overall are both crappy units here with the Panther being slightly better. The previous range of the vet 3 PE panther was  ridicolous because it outranged at guns, but its a huge difference between all PE doctrines having access to super panther and tank busters having a long-range jagd, imho

[Scyn]

If it really comes down to it, I'd probably move for tuning down all medium tanks so that heavy tanks fill their role more effectively.

[Killer344]

lmao.

[Scyn]

I'm just really not that interested in turning the Jadg into an unkillable marder.. because how would you kill an impenetrable tank that has more range than your AT guns?

And try to be realistic, the odds of getting the chance to circle a jadgpanther and getting it are slim and none.

[Smokaz]

If you wanna make the bigger tanks more effective, increasing pak and at gun population to 5 or 6 would help a lot. As I tried in my edit in the post, the problem lies in that the counters to most of the big tanks (tigers, pershings, jagds etc) are so much more effective in general roles and for population that the big tanks become a joke.

[Scyn]

And I agree, but the population of the mobile AT weapons is being able to field multiple AT weapons in support of the rest of your army. Not accentuate the usefulness of a tank by saying 'that for the population of x.. I could have x, therefor it's usefulness is crap'

[AmPM]

Its not a Tank, its a Marder with more HP, better armor, less range, less damage output, and lower speed.

And yes, its role is the EXACT same as the Hetzer or Marder, it just does it worse for a more survivability. They fill the same role, its not a tank, it cannot kill infantry, it cannot support infantry except against tanks.

For this ROLE, there are other units that are much better for it due to range advantage, damage advantage, pop advantage, and cost advantage.

[gamesguy2]

And I agree, but the population of the mobile AT weapons is being able to field multiple AT weapons in support of the rest of your army. Not accentuate the usefulness of a tank by saying 'that for the population of x.. I could have x, therefor it's usefulness is crap'

I think we'd see a much more dynamic game if we just increased MGs to pop 4(mg nests to pop 3), AT guns to 5 or even 6, and mortars to 5.

You can even lower their resource cost a little more to compensate.

[Smokaz]

Increase of population costs for mgs, at guns and mortars would be AWESOME and completely overthrow the current metagame.

[gamesguy2]

Increase of population costs for mgs, at guns and mortars would be AWESOME and completely overthrow the current metagame.

This warrants a seperate thread.

Though I dont think it will happen.  God knows I've tried.

[Smokaz]

This warrants a seperate thread.

Though I dont think it will happen.  God knows I've tried.

It would be a EIRR rebellion, a uprising, a artsy outbreak of magnificence. All the old Gods like Odin-42, Triage-Loki and Thor with the medikit would be destroyed in a epic explosion of new ideas.

The current population costs seem to reflect a decision that gave generalist power way too much credit while while not taking account the extreme power of well played specialist combined arms, low pop recrewing etc.

Seriously, this would rock the block so hard its almost sexually arousing.

[AmPM]

Epic indeed