Increasing pop on mgs, mortars and at guns

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[Smokaz]

It won't affect wehrmacht players who use combinations of support weapons and regular infantry/vehicles too much. It will mainly reduce the size of a defensive support wall, which is a good thing for everybody because of the nature of many of the EIRR maps.

The british have their own support teams which will be similarily affected - they too have 2 inch mortar, mortar pit, vickers and vickers mg teams who will be affected by the overall change.

It's also being conviently left out that the WEAKNESS of having poor (british) or non-existent support team yourself. Thats a big drawback for their factions as opposed to americans and wehr having exellent support teams.

Lets say you have a single pak, mortar and mg on the field. With +1 pop to every support weapon type which would be a great way to conservatively test the change, means a single mg less worth of pop. If its +2 to at guns/paks, it would be a single pak less worth of pop.

[Akranadas]

Very interesting points... keep it up guys

[Draken]

I never found it as problem, lawl one offmap on couple of support weapons and 1/4 of your enemy company gone.

Its just biased opinion I guess smokaz was ownd as pe against support weapon spam.

Maybe wehr support weapons pop should go (mortar to 5 pop) up but not amis. Amis sup weapons already sucks.

[Akranadas]

Draken, that's not how you should have a discussion; You should work on your posting style.

[Rocksitter]

Amis sup weapons already sucks.

 Are you serious ?

[Draken]

Hi Im John Williams.

I would like to disagree with upper speakers. I totally disagree with they unsuported with facts arguments.  American support weapons especialy the 60mm M2 team weapon is very bad weapon. And the amercian cal 50, can't comment that.

But the german mg 42 firing 1200 rounds per minute, just give a hell our american boys.

And pak 38 with cloaking technology from future destroys our tanks in not time.

Regards fan of you mod John W.

[gamesguy2]

i think mortars should be reduced to 2 in reserve, not 3, and i think US mortars should be 3 pop while her stay at 4 pop. im still contemplating how good it would be to have AT guns and stuff a little higher. its hard to consider because since tank pop went down recently im not sure if it would be a good idea to increase ATG pop, but I also think something that cuts back on support spam may be a very good thing.

Both mortars are 4 pop.

In addition, I think this change absolutely needs to go hand in hand with a small reduction(10%-15%?) in the price of the said support weapons.

Support weapons are absurdly expensive in terms of resources, but absurdly cheap in terms of pop cap.   I think we should meet the two in the middle somewhere.

I propose +1 popcap cost to MG/Mortar/ATG including the relevant Brit emplacements and MG nests/bunkers, but decrease the cost of MG/Mortar/ATG(but not the MG nests, which are already really cheap) by 15% across the board.

[Sach]

Would this affect mortar HT/Inf HT?

[DasNoob]

Mortar HT are already 6 pop and you can only buy 2 before you hit PP.  It's also one of very very few crowd control units left that the PE have now that IHT suppression is da suck.

[Smokaz]

American support weapons are scheiss compared to their wehr counterparts, but they are also significantly cheaper. With veterancy it also seems to tend towards the american mortar pwning the uber wehr mortar, imho. Range difference is not THAT huge. Mortar duels come down to who bombs the other guy without being bombed himself. Vet for mgs is a non-issue imo, as mgs always die.

A price reduction seems reasonable and should be considered if this change is implemented.

Btw, if any ghost ever comes back from the dead to haunt you draken, its going to be the english teacher you had during practise of formal letter writing. Unfinished business and all that jazz. Smokaz out, gg.

[RikiRude]

i know gamesguy, i was saying wher should stay at 4 and US should go down to 3 since us mortar is very inferior to it.

and I think PE would stay the same, i think the support weapons thing is more for the other factions.

[gamesguy2]

i know gamesguy, i was saying wher should stay at 4 and US should go down to 3 since us mortar is very inferior to it.

Why should mortars get lower in popcap when the thing they are designed to counter, namely MGs and ATGs are going up?

The American mortar is not nearly as inferior as you think.  Me/jack/smokaz just had a game vs pauli/boobaka/pak and our american mortars raped the axis mortars even with mortar HTs on their side.

10 less range is not that huge, the American mortar is cheaper and fires faster to compensate.   Mortar combat is mostly about getting the drop on the other guy without getting shot at in return.   

[RikiRude]

oooh ok, i see what you mean. i wrote it wrong. I simply mean that US mortar should be 1 pop cap less, I was just using the base pop cap numbers as an example, I should of been more clear.

[Smokaz]

Consider this: I for one have posted a lot about the Panther sucking. Do you know why I think the Panther sucks? Because its 15 pop and can engage a very narrow range of targets effectively.

Think back upon a couple of games as wehr where the americans or brits have brought out two cromwells, three shermans or any fairly HIGH POP TOTAL combination of primarily anti infantry medium armor. I say primarily because they are better at it than engaging clowncars, pumas or AC's and that P4s, geschutzes Marders basically 1v1 to give them a fair fight without TOO much trouble, doctrines not considered.

In all essence, if shermans were any worse against other medium/kamikaze armor (p4s, clowncars) then they are now, they would be long range PE P4IST's. Good against paks when they circle, good to okayish against piats and rrs, acceptable against light armor (like the PE p4 > m8) and generally cause a lot of havoc if you have 2-3 of them attacking your rangers, mgs and at guns.

The response to allies bringing out double shermans and a cromwell this is usually a buttload of stormtroopers and paks, which because of the medium range accuracy of the shrek (0.75), damage bonuses on vetted grenadiers and doctrinal buffs (fins, zeal, IA etc) will continue to be the most pop-effective counter.

Another response usually seen, is the panther. What happens every time a panther is deployed? Shermans pull back to a wall of at guns, panther sits there at 15 pop with limited AI/at gun ability and (roughly) the same health as a sherman if it tries to kill shermans while paks shoot the american armor and 57mms shoot the Panther. Result? Panther fails.

This is a VERY normal and routinely seen situation in EIRR which you all should be able to remind yourself of. Take it into consideration if your point of view is that wehrmacht will suffer alone if support weapons are nerfed, it actually will work both ways and there's also a side of the change which Wehr benefits the most from.

[Fresz1]

Good idea smokaz and iam aggreed to this as well...

but however after 1-2 months when nearly every one get unlocked skills, US and British troops get decrease pop and decrease costs for the battalion, AXIS are screwd anyway.

[Smokaz]

If I remember correctly, Devs have stated that cost reducers will not make a return. So that's one less worry for you. As for pop decreasers, I am convinced that these will at the very most for a short period of time be "too much" before they are brought in line. As some of you might have noted, they have reduced the overall impact of doctrines on the game. The buffs and abilities given are overall less crazy, if you are unsure of this I urge you to compare the bonuses from the old EIR doctrines and the similarily named ones we have currently implemented. I have 110% faith in the Dev's ability to balance the game from what I've seen so far.

[Akranadas]

There will be no Price decreases or Population Decreases (Triage Gets one) in the doctrines.

[Duckordie]

Mortars -> 5 pop
Mgs -> 4  pop
At guns -> 6 pop

1+

Thats how i keep my curent winning streek, just pump out ANTI "This" guns
Maybe 1 or 2 rifels as fast backup or a quad.

[Nijo]

ah okay and axis tanks dont hide behinde a wall of cloaked paks tripple schreck stormys and hmgs?

[Tymathee]

There will be no Price decreases or Population Decreases (Triage Gets one) in the doctrines.

ooh triage gets one? i didn't see that anywhere...