Increasing pop on mgs, mortars and at guns

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[Bubz]

Yep that is what I tried to explain, but I used the wrong example, so just stick to 2.6 changes to understand what I mean. T17 in vcoh for example.

[Jazlizard]

I just don't get it. You can't really spam support weapons, they are too dam expensive. If you do, your company becomes one dimensional and the loss of a small amount of units will have a huge impact on your company. A single off map or on map can really bring you down, and support weapons are what generally everyone targets, because they move slowly and take a while to deploy/un-deploy, that and again, they are very expensive.

Perhaps the issue is with supply drops, as I see at least one of these per side every game I play. I don't know if they are free or not, but they do add a mg and mortar to each side per drop.

[Scyn]

Supply Drops is something we've been meaning to look into, but haven't gotten around to it just yet.

[gamesguy2]

I just don't get it. You can't really spam support weapons, they are too dam expensive. If you do, your company becomes one dimensional and the loss of a small amount of units will have a huge impact on your company. A single off map or on map can really bring you down, and support weapons are what generally everyone targets, because they move slowly and take a while to deploy/un-deploy, that and again, they are very expensive.

Yes you can, before I switched I had a company designed to eventually getting heavy support that had 4 MGs, 4 paks, 3 mortars and a sniper.

Indeed, you cant increase mg pop without taking in consideration brit blobs for example. How does that balance itself ?

Ah the mythical brit blob, the boogeyman of EIRR.   Burst bug makes ACs too powerfu- no if you fix it the brit blob will come eat your children!

A one pop increase on MGs will have almost no effect if you use them are you are supposed to, to support your infantry.   Two bren tommies+ LT costs slightly more resources and 1 less pop compared to two LMG grens and a MG42(assuming it gets nerfed to 4 pop).  And there is no way the former can beat the latter unless you were completely inept.

[Jazlizard]

Yes you can, before I switched I had a company designed to eventually getting heavy support that had 4 MGs, 4 paks, 3 mortars and a sniper.

And for the low low price of of of 4620 MP and 1100, you too can have over half your manpower and munitions condensed into 12 units.

[AmPM]

12 Units that will shut down 2x their own Pop costs pretty easy.

They are incredibly cost and pop efficient.

Think about it like this. HMG or Dual LMG grens, which costs more.

Mortars....do I even need to point out how awesome mortars are on all sides?

PAK/57/6lbr, the LAST word in Tanks when used properly (aka, with a small supporting unit to prevent flank)

Sniper, for killin your doodz while you can't counter him without another sniper. Due to the support wall behind him.

If you up the Pop, you still have the most efficient for cost and pop specialist units in the game, just not as efficient as they were.

[Piotrskivich]

But keep in mind that support weapons are extremely easy to lose to other mortars and artillery.

[jackmccrack]

It's fine the way it is.

[Smokaz]

Jaz come play decent wehr support spammers with your americans or british, and you will learn how a layered wehrmacht defense takes no damage from focusing a lot of their manpower/muns into the support spam. The way it works is that even when you remove one line of mgs and paks, there's secondary lines just meant to slow you down and force your tanks/infantry to make new flanks/soften up defenses allowing recrewing infantry or additional support weapons to move up.

Only by completely and utterly overrunning it AND wiping the wehr players field presence to such a degree that you can buy yourself time to steal/destroy all his weapons can you actually hurt him. Volks will recrew the weapons either by forced abandon weapon or by being gunned down. It's like a vampire, you have to reach down into his coffin and stake his heart or he will come back regenerated. It's THE hardest and most difficult build to take down for any allied company if it's being well managed. Right now in the right hands its unbeatable because of Winbutton counters to snipers and artillery + elite infantry exhaustion. Only one thing can wear it down and take it out, and that's outplaying him using oversupplied riflespam with lots of nades, and even this can be almost impossible on maps like RTC.

You might dislike me, refuse to play me or by my person alone seek to make my claims phony, but I am an extremely experienced player from both Vcoh and eir. Support spam, and particulary wehr support spam is the hardest thing to deal with in the game right now. In my wehr company I run 6 mgs and 6 paks with double shrek grenadiers, a bike blob and usually a wehrmacht ally with a V1 so any howitzers are destroyed.

As for the silly notion that birts pose a threat that only can be handled by the current super campy support spam: Brit blobs is one of the easiest things to counter in EIRR atm. Nebel and 1-2 mgs negate insane amounts of manpower and munitions for brits. Kite the piats, supress the blob, nebel it if it blobs too hard in one spot. If he spreads out, all the more glory to you. Without their easily focuus-fired officers, their units are ineffecient in comparison to grens.

Its easy peasy. Its just one big stupid blob of infantry that gets a red "crush me with tanks" debuff after a heroic charge, which right now is only a get out of trouble button like fireup.

Honestly if more people realized how much benefit there is to be had from playing more than 1 faction during a war (and how fun it is) we wouldn't be wasting our time discussing basic mechanics and counters, cause we'd actually know the same from our experiences playing more than only wehr, or only americans, or only PE.

[DasNoob]

True, but where is my WIN button v. brit blobs as PE?  IHT don't cut it.  I've found that G43 slow and incendiary on the MHT is good, but not effective if the blob is fast

[spinn72]

if you REALLY want to up the pop on any support weapons just make an MG 4 pop instead of 3.  That way it will be equal of the mortar, and ATG, because it works to the same effect.  If will also change starting callins too so they're not so support based.

Right now the good thing about support weapons is that they cost a lot of munitions (Manpower for Mortars) and therefore you can't spam them too much as such.

[AmPM]

Wait, what? They cost a lot of Mu?

An HMG is 40mu, an ATG is 110-120ish, a Mortar is 50-60. How is any of that alot of Mu? Each one costs less than a basic weapon upgrade for a squad of infantry for its role (AT, AI, Indirect), each one has longer range and more firepower. Each one uses less pop.

The ONLY reason you don't see more, is availability.

[Tymathee]

Wait, what? They cost a lot of Mu?

An HMG is 40mu, an ATG is 110-120ish, a Mortar is 50-60. How is any of that alot of Mu? Each one costs less than a basic weapon upgrade for a squad of infantry for its role (AT, AI, Indirect), each one has longer range and more firepower. Each one uses less pop.

The ONLY reason you don't see more, is availability.

what he said. If you really want support weapon spam, go back in the days of old eir where you'd see some guys field 2 or 3 mortars, have like 6 or so hmgs 6 at guns etc. availablility is what keeps it in line now.

[AmPM]

I never said Availability keeps it in line, its the only downside right now, as more people approach higher levels and need fewer and fewer PPs to add to their doctrines, guess where it goes?

If I wanted to, I could replace 50% of my infantry with HMGs. But it wouldn't be as fun. Can you imagine 8 HMGs in a Heavy Support company? 3 of them would keep ANY infantry at bay, then they just need 2 PaKs, a Mortar and Schreks.

3 HMG 9 pop, 2 PAK, 8 pop, Mortar for 4 Pop = 21, grab a TB squad reinforcement and call it good, or wait a minute or two for the schreks. That or just support your teammate and use all those PPs laying around to spam more support with doctrine bonuses.

Basically, no matter how many infantry you bring, those 3 HMGs can stop them, and 2 PAKs + schreks will shred a tank assault.

[Jazlizard]

Get over yourself Smokaz, this has nothing to do with me or you, your imaginary world where I refuse to play you, or your 'credentials' or lack there of. In fact no where in this thread, other then now, have I attacked your character or who you were. You made this an issue not me, so lets not go there.

I play a support heavy wher, and I have also played Americans before through many many iterations of EiR. None of that makes my observations any more valid then another persons everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how right or wrong it may appear to be.

You can only realistically have so many MG's on the field by one person, if one is backing up the other, then the width of the field I am covering suddenly becomes small. If I have them spread to cover a wide area, then if you take one out, suddenly I have a open flank. Over coming MGs is one of the first skills any decent player masters, both in vcoh and eir.

Support can be countered by many things, indirect fire being the easiest. It may be hard to break a good defense (and shouldn't it be?), but it's not impossible, and once broken it can be very hard to recover for the support player as the number of assault units he has likely isn't as much as someone who didn't base his company around support units, the mistake most people make is not pushing through the initial defense and demolishing the secondary when they have a chance.

Each side has ways of dealing with support heavy companies, it's no different then me having to deal with someone who has lots of armor or lots of infantry, I can only handle so much and have a limited amount of counters that if I'm not careful with will cost me the game. Each unit is much more important to the support player then most builds, players just need to learn to capitalize on this.

These units are EXPENSIVE, aside from the MG which I already said earlier could use some tweaking. Perhaps a pop cap of 4 to start things off.

I am sorry if you have issue with the play style, and rifles with nades is not the only way to over come this by any means. You and I both know that.

I have lots of issues with the changes, first off tanks just got cheaper and ATGs are a big part of keeping the game from being an armor fest. MG's have the same role, with regards to infantry, but my biggest issue with it is that it's messing with more then 1 unit at a time and I don't think that is the way to go about changing things that aren't completely out of whack.

If the devs feel that support weapons are out of whack, and I hope they don't, then I hope that whatever changes are made are gradual and not as sweeping as these change would be.

[Smokaz]

Get over yourself Smokaz, this has nothing to do with me or you, your imaginary world where I refuse to play you, or your 'credentials' or lack there of. In fact no where in this thread, other then now, have I attacked your character or who you were. You made this an issue not me, so lets not go there.

I play a support heavy wher, and I have also played Americans before through many many iterations of EiR. None of that makes my observations any more valid then another persons everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how right or wrong it may appear to be.

You can only realistically have so many MG's on the field by one person, if one is backing up the other, then the width of the field I am covering suddenly becomes small. If I have them spread to cover a wide area, then if you take one out, suddenly I have a open flank. Over coming MGs is one of the first skills any decent player masters, both in vcoh and eir.

Support can be countered by many things, indirect fire being the easiest. It may be hard to break a good defense (and shouldn't it be?), but it's not impossible, and once broken it can be very hard to recover for the support player as the number of assault units he has likely isn't as much as someone who didn't base his company around support units, the mistake most people make is not pushing through the initial defense and demolishing the secondary when they have a chance.

Each side has ways of dealing with support heavy companies, it's no different then me having to deal with someone who has lots of armor or lots of infantry, I can only handle so much and have a limited amount of counters that if I'm not careful with will cost me the game. Each unit is much more important to the support player then most builds, players just need to learn to capitalize on this.

These units are EXPENSIVE, aside from the MG which I already said earlier could use some tweaking. Perhaps a pop cap of 4 to start things off.

I am sorry if you have issue with the play style, and rifles with nades is not the only way to over come this by any means. You and I both know that.

I have lots of issues with the changes, first off tanks just got cheaper and ATGs are a big part of keeping the game from being an armor fest. MG's have the same role, with regards to infantry, but my biggest issue with it is that it's messing with more then 1 unit at a time and I don't think that is the way to go about changing things that aren't completely out of whack.

If the devs feel that support weapons are out of whack, and I hope they don't, then I hope that whatever changes are made are gradual and not as sweeping as these change would be.

There would be valid points here if not for the fact that support weapon combined arms counter types support each other much more closely than say, 2 rifles and a sherman. The mg covers the pak against infantry, and the pak infantry against paks. You can't just choose to single out one type of counters from a support spammer and hope he "runs out of at".

  The current at guns are not expensive, they cost the same as a shrek but with a little wire and tanktraps become a much more lethal contender; also most of the "average" support spam wehr do not use spotters to utilize their unit's full range (and just wait until defensive and terror get their support weapon buffs). One mg can last the entire game if its recrewed, only some types of offmaps/artillery ensures total destruction of support weapons in the open.

As for attacking with support weapons, they are not limited to defense. One example is called AT gun creeping and albeit slower, its just as good as a regular attack because it pretty much sets up the other guy's counterattack to wade right into your kill zone.

The current situation is definitely also a result of when doctrines on either sides have winbuttons against onmap artillery, the simplicity in dispatching snipers for anyone else than brits and the RELATIVE scarcity of offmaps from game to game, on top of the obvious differences in the strength and presence of support weapons among the 4 factions.

Apart from the playstyle being overly passive and easy to manage, its plan boring and frustrating for many players. It's could be understood like the wehr player saying this before game: "Ok, Im going to take middle no matter what and then I'm gonna sit there. I'm not gonna harass with anything other than unvetted 1 man volk squads, just probe you with bikes and mortars while I sit here. You have to attack me, I'm going to dig in as hard as I can while you tear out your hair in vain attempt to counter my strat on the majority of the small closed EIRR map environments."

The efficiency, ease and power of this one type of wehr strategy has started to completely dictate how most wehr players design their companies. I can barely tell the difference between most of them, while american, PE and even the few-units british army still can shock me with new ideas now and then. 

[Malevolence]

Wait, what? They cost a lot of Mu?

An HMG is 40mu, an ATG is 110-120ish, a Mortar is 50-60. How is any of that alot of Mu? Each one costs less than a basic weapon upgrade for a squad of infantry for its role (AT, AI, Indirect), each one has longer range and more firepower. Each one uses less pop.

The ONLY reason you don't see more, is availability.

Yeah, I would prefer to see a munitions limited support spam than an availability limited one personally.

There would be valid points here if not for the fact that support weapon combined arms counter types support each other much more closely than say, 2 rifles and a sherman. The mg covers the pak against infantry, and the pak infantry against paks. You can't just choose to single out one type of counters from a support spammer and hope he "runs out of at".

  The at guns is not expensive, it costs the same as a shrek but with a little wire and tanktraps becomes a much more lethal contender; also most of the "average" support spam wehr do not use spotters to utilize their unit's full length (and just wait until defensive and terror get their support weapon buffs). One mg can last the entire game if its recrewed, only some types of offmaps/artillery ensures total destruction of support weapons in the open.

As for attacking with support weapons, they are not limited to defense. One example is called AT gun creeping and albeit slower, its just as good as a regular attack because it pretty much sets up the other guy's counterattack to wade right into your kill zone.

The current situation definitely also a result of when doctrines on either sides have winbuttons against onmap artillery with the current ease of which the vcoh factions dispatch of snipers with the 4v1 bike/jeep  and the RELATIVE scarcity of offmaps from game to game, on top of the obvious differences in the strength and presence of support weapons among the 4 factions.

Apart from the playstyle being overly passive and easy to manage, its plan boring and frustrating for many players. It's could be understood like the wehr player saying this before game: "Ok, Im going to take middle no matter what and then I'm gonna sit there. I'm not gonna harass with anything other than unvetted 1 man volk squads, just probe you with bikes and mortars while I sit here. You have to attack me, I'm going to dig in as hard as I can while you tear out your hair in vain attempt to counter my strat on the majority of the small closed EIRR map environments."

The efficiency, ease and power of this one type of wehr strategy has started to completely dictate how most wehr players design their companies. I can barely tell the difference between most of them, while american, PE and even the few-units british army still can shock me with new ideas now and then. 

Yeah this is mostly it.

[Bubz]

I gotta say smokaz has a point, but everything he says can be done as wehrmacht, and I've seen it done. I wonder what's wrong with u.s. support then, a part from ap rounds taking 1/4 healt of a panther (if they don't miss), when mortar/mg are far less effective against a superior infantry, and since allied tanks suck 57mms are the counters to tanks/skirted tanks.

[Schultz]

You're making this too much of an issue. Most wehr people play like this because they call it fun, they call it tactical. They dont want to blob infantry, dont want to spam light vehicles in a crazy rollercoster ride.
A campy player that refuses to adopt and change to a situation, and just wants to dig is bound to fail. Once the mg is down the cards of the pyramids all fall apart and their support "spam" becomes yours, along with half the map.
Also when off-maps and on map artillery gets field the crazy support spam would get butt-hurt.
What have you been talking about some time now are all strategies of the past. I remember players getting together to play and one will field support teams, the other endless hoards of infantry. Silly things like this are not happening anymore. The pp requirement stops that and it grows even more with every update that introduce more stuff into the mod and demand more pps/ more games to play.
Even with 100 pps in reserve and a determination to spam support weps, one can not succeeds in doing it forever, unless he avoids vet players and only plays new guys.
Support spam was an annoyance BACK then when we could field a REAL crazy amount of mgs. When people pmed and said, i have 10 mgs in my company. And you replied hoozah ?
Maybe its getting old to to see this, because maybe youre getting tired with the game, but this is how it goes. Combined arms. Mg suppress infantry and mortar drops shells to the suppressed troops. If youre tired on this maybe youre getting tired on the coh gameplay. I know i am getting there.

Ah the mythical brit blob, the boogeyman of EIRR.   Burst bug makes ACs too powerfu- no if you fix it the brit blob will come eat your children!

A one pop increase on MGs will have almost no effect if you use them are you are supposed to, to support your infantry.   Two bren tommies+ LT costs slightly more resources and 1 less pop compared to two LMG grens and a MG42(assuming it gets nerfed to 4 pop).  And there is no way the former can beat the latter unless you were completely inept.

Such goes for the mythical support spam. I mean you called me spammer for fielding 2-3 mgs while you had nothing but tommies/lts/op piats(back then) roaming all over the place.
A nerf pop to the support "spam" will only mean that the wehr player will not be able to field it at least at the start or it will cost him perhaps the pop of an lmg squad to have it while the opponent enjoys the true excitement of starting full infantry, and already with a pop and unit advantage. This is truly balanced.
Cause combined arms dont come with just one mg. It comes with pak, it comes with mortar. And its strong standing together. Take the mortar out for example and you have hurt it immensely.
Your dire need of seeing more variety enters not with 25 pop and the ability to do good in the first critical minutes of the game but later on.
I started thinking that increasing support wep pop would result in making big tanks usable again but frankly i dont consider it anymore. Not with the spam of light vehicles/tanks and infantry you see in every game. And no i dont view this open tactics/variety or whatever.
Pak is nerfed already and thats a huge blow to combined arms.

In closing any major change in the pop of some particular units results in a pop change in the others. Changes arent suppose to be linnear, and they give birth to new issues, more than the ones they supposedly come to solve.
Im not opposed to increasing pop altogether but im surely opposed in a biased change to a selective units.

[Killer344]

If I have them spread to cover a wide area, then if you take one out, suddenly I have a open flank. Over coming MGs is one of the first skills any decent player masters, both in vcoh and eir.

Good luck trying to flank them now they can switch targets from buildings when you tell them to do so.