Hetzers and Churchills Discussion and changes.

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[Sharpshooter824]

Alright as it is there is something seriously wrong with the fact that Hetzers all out own infy with that automated MG on top and the fact that it has awesome AT capabilities too and can go camo ( I think, can't remember if it can in EiR ) compared to a churchill
Lets Compare, these prices are from the current price list so don't flame me if im off by 10 manpower or something..

Churchill MK IV
MP:410 | Fuel:260 | Pop: 10

Hetzer
MP:400 | Fuel:245 | Pop: 10

Both are doctrinal, both are T2, with the Hetzer being slightly cheaper why does it have some super MG that (at least I don't think) costs anything to be upgraded with and all out owns infantry, plus what it  actually is supposed to do, (KILL TANKS) does exceptionally well (Which im not condoning).The hetzer has very good frontal armor. The only downside of a hetzer is the fixed gun which in support is exceptional.
The Churchill on the other hand is supposed to support infy! What tank can't support infy..
We pay more for a churchill that is slower..no MG, an awful gun that can be upgraded with another T2 ability (er.. so we buy an expensive tank and have to buy another ability to make it capable of fighting?) It has good armor and HP and obviously has a rotating turret.

To conclude this, the hetzer is much much more cost efficient, much better AT and AI capabilities (For a tank destroyer..too..)

My suggestion is not nerfing the hetzer but yes.. BUFFING the churchill by possibly making available a .50 cal upgrade and buffing the gun (As in giving it slightly better RoF, slight dmg increase and slight better accuracy VS infy or better splash dmg) so we don't have to purchase a T2 doctrinal ability to make it capable of doing anything.. this would make the churchill a worthy AI unit and make supporting infantry ideal for the Churchill MKIV

Discuss and no flaming   or bringing any other units into this discussion besides the Hetzer and Churchill! Thank you  

[Tymathee]

the churchill is a engineering tank mainly, it's got super heavy crush, can take a larger pounding than the hetzer and has a high priority so it can s uck in at gun shots and other tanks and then you can move in other units.

the hetzers .50 is the same as any other infantry, the reason why it does so well vs ami and brit infantry is the lower health so it'll get more kills than say the .50 cal on the m18.

[Killer344]

wtf is super heavy crush?

[Sharpshooter824]

Tbh I don't care if church got a slight HP nerf or something to see the AI capabilities get buffed significantly without having to buy a T2 ability!  

[spinn72]

The Churchill is T1 and can crush.  And later you'll be able to throw a 75mm gun on it, so i wouldn't really consider changing it until the 75mm gun comes out.  I think it will be useful then, as 10 pop makes it very efficient.

btw super heavy crush means it runs over all infantry and kills them + crushes hedges, like a panther/tiger etc.

[AmPM]

The Churchill suffers the same problem as all other "heavy tanks", its job, which is to take a beating, is not useful in the current EIR environment, where one would rather avoid damage instead.

The Hetzer though, only owns infantry that has no AT capability, in fact it probably takes the same amount of time for a Hetzer to kill off a couple rifles as it does the Churchill to kill 2 squads of Grens.

With your logic though, since a Churchill will beat a P4, the P4 should be cheaper than the Churchill, and cost the same pop.

Your condition to not bring any other units into this discussion needs to be ignored to look at the prices fairly. PE spends its fuel on Tanks, AT, and Support Weapons. British spend their fuel only on tanks. Following this, it should not be hard at all to build a Brit tank force with 5-6 Churchills (I had one with 4 Crocs + command tanks), units cannot and should not be examined in a vacuum, they must be examined in a environment similar to the game.

The only problem with Churchills is the same problem faced by all heavy armor tanks. Their damage output is mediocre for their price, they are specialists, and they paint a big target on themselves.

[Sharpshooter824]

rofl wow I wasn't thinking when I said that part yes the churchill is T1 lolol  

[Warlight]

AMPM has it right about hetzers, 95% of the time I'm killing infantry by parking my hetser right ontop of them and shooting point blank.  Stickies would prevent this, they are working again cause I had one thrown at me earlier. 

The other 5% i'm shooting at infantry at long range like an ATG and getting lucky, or I'm kitting rangers who's zooks can't scratch my front army and pulling them along negative cover roads while my maching gun has a party on their faces.

[Sharpshooter824]

Like I said, im not wanting the hetzer to be nerfed, just the churchill to be buffed considering it costs slightly more and it has no AT or AI capabilities..

[AmPM]

It beats a p4, for less pop and less resources. Beats HTs too, Marders not so much, but thats an ATG.

So how is its AT bad? It kills another tank, that costs more and takes more pop. Seems good enough. The 75mm upgrade should make them awesome for their price. With Tank Shock and heavy crush they can suppress infantry (after a time) and run through hedges, tank traps etc. Get a mine plow and nothing short of destruction will stop it moving forward.

[Latios418]

Just fyi, Hetzers are free, not t2.

[Warlight]

Oh and Hets are micro intensive, because of thier pathing fail.

[Malevolence]

And churchills aren't because of THEIR pathing fail? 

[Latios418]

Jagdpanzer pathing fails more than Churchill one =p

[Tymathee]

And churchills aren't because of THEIR pathing fail? 

at least churchhills can run through th ingss while hetzers can't.

[Warlight]

And churchills aren't because of THEIR pathing fail? 

That heavy crush does alot to make up for poor pathing, I mean, hetzers don't like to drive around bushes.

On a side note, Both of my Vet3 hetzers were bum rushed by 4 shermans a firefly and 2 airborne squads.  Needless to say...

[Sharpshooter824]

So pretty much the churchill is an all around more expensive tank for heavy crush and slightly better armor but a much much much worse gun and no MG, plus tank shock isn't even implemented and also the churchill is much slower,

All I want to see is the churchill with better AI capabilities without having to buy multiple doctrinal upgrades to make it halfway decent

And how often do you see churchills kill P4s...churchills bounce P4s oh so often its not even funny 

[Latios418]

Actually, Hetzers have better armour than Churchills. However, the Hetzer has fairly low HP to make up for it; whereas the Churchill keeps a nice hp tally.

[CrazyWR]

Sharp, why is it that the only threads I see you posting in are the ones you create about buffing the RE doctrine?  You're becoming as bad as Aloha...

[Sharpshooter824]

I don't just have an RE account crazy, and the truth is why im posting so much about the RE doctrine is because it seriously does need adjustments..Its a crappy churchill, really, the logic is that it needs a buff period..