Can one of the devs explain M1 carabines to me?

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[Smokaz]

It says 50% more reload, how much does this increase damage output on unupgraded rifles? Mysthalin suggested this was only a 6% damage increase, which is fairly PATHETIC for a t4 if it's right. Scopes is a T3 that gives +10% damage AND range.

 If this is intended to "only" be used together with heavy weapons (zook rifles), I will become hugely dissapointed. Then neither of these infantry abilities really stand on their own, reducing choice to the usual min/maxing and having to pick certain abilities because of others abilities working nicely together with them.

Can any of the devs/mods please supply what it actually does and the performance change in the units it affects?

[Duckordie]

I play us inf, i looked at it, then said "fuck it" I only got 6 rifle squads any way

There should be more stuff about the rangers in that inf doctrine like before


50%  reload aint much,

[Smokaz]

It's a misnomer. "M1 Carbines" is a T4 that doubles the Garand's ROF for Rifle squads (well, it improves Garand DPS by 90% or so). It's called "M1 Carbines" because Carbines shoot twice as fast as Garands in this game.

Doing a search on it, this was the most informative post I found. Is this correct? How does this "90% damage increase" and 50% reload mix?

[Mysthalin]

A 50 percent increase in reload time would only affect every 8 shots fired by a rifleman, therefore translating into a 6 percent buff to the overall DPS of riflemen, if they actualy survived long enough to reload, which is pretty damn rare.

[acker]

so, i tried to time the cooldown and reload between shots and got about 4-5 seconds in a stand up, cover to cover fight. (because cohstats.com is just a bunch of jumbled numbers to me :/)

Would the buff put rifles at firing a round every 3 seconds or so then?

[(Reload Frequency + 1) * Accuracy * Damage] / [Ready Aim Time + (Fire Aim Time + Cooldown) * Reload Frquency + Reload]

The dps formula for rifles.  Assuming 50% decrease in reload and cooldown for the M1 garand, and at say medium range, thats:

[(8+1)*0.55*10]/[0.25+(0.3+1.325)*8+1.5]=3.355 dps.  The underlined numbers are the only numbers modified by the 50% decrease in cooldown/reload m1 carbine ability.   Plug in the numbers, stick it in a calculator(I used wolfram alpha), done.

By comparison, the garand without the ability does 1.79 dps at medium range.  So its roughly a 86% dps increase.

Some numbers.

[(8+ 1) *0.35*10] / [0.25+(0.6+ 2.06) *8 + 1.5]=1.367

[(8+ 1) *0.75*10] / [0.25+(0.075+ .756) *8 + 1.5]=8.03

Garand dps with the ability at long/medium/short range: 1.367/3.355/8.03, Garand dps without the ability: 0.7674/1.79/4.232.
So roughly a 85-90% dps increase in the garand.

MG dps formula:

[Rate of Fire * Burst Duration * (Reload Frequency + 1) * Accuracy * Damage] / [Ready Aim Time + (Fire Aim Time + Cooldown) * Reload Frquency + Reload + Burst Duration * (Reload Frquency +1)]

Bar dps:

[7*1*(7+1)*0.2*7]/[0.1+(0.25+1.75)*7+1.5+1*(7+1)]=3.32

[7*1*(7+1)*0.45*7]/[0.1+(0.25+0.875)*7+1.5+1*(7+1)]=10.09

[7*1*(7+1)*0.75*7]/[0.1+(0.25+0.393)*7+1.5+1*(7+1)]=20.849

Apply a .75 damage modifier vs infantry from the bar:

Bar dps with the t4 l/m/s: 2.49/7.56/15.636
Bar dps without the t4:    1.533/5.069/11.385
So only about a 50% dps increase with bars.


TLDR:  
DPS of Riflesquad(no bars) with the t4 vs infantry armor long/med/short:  8.202/20.13/48.19
DPS of rifles without the t4: 4.6/10.74/25.39

DPS of a BAR riflesquad with the t4: 10.448/28.54/63.292
DPS of a BAR riflesquad without t4:   6.136/17.29/39.67

For comparison, this is the dps of a four man mp44 squad: 4.1/15.664/77.76
Dps of a single LMG gren squad 8.25/16.3/33.09

This ability is extremely good with vanilla rifles, and still decently powerful with bars.  It does not improve rifle survivability any, so all the regular rifle counters still own them.   It takes good micro and flanking skills to utilize properly.
But with the current numbers(50% cooldown and 50% reload), it lets you have extremely powerful unupgraded rifles.  Though keep in mind something like a KCH squad will probably still facerape you with its heroic armor.

From this thread:

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=10387.0



I'm not sure how old the information is, but, from this build of M1 Carbines, the reload and cooldown were slashed in half.

[Mysthalin]

Great then, if it affects cooldown, the DPS increase should be quite a nice one!
Fire aim time, as far as I know, though, is not an actualy game-changing number, it is just a number that sets the time the unit is looking at a target while it's shooting(to give enough time for the bullet to fly out so it doesn't look queer when a bullet flies out from a rifle that's being pointed at the ground).

[Smokaz]

Hopefully a dev will be with us shortly and explain if it affects both cooldown and reload

[Unkn0wn]

AFAIK it affects cooldown as well.

[salan]

it effects both cooldown and reload.

I have been testing it out, there is a marked improvement with the garand troops over those without the buff.  I find that I don't buy bars, but buy bazooka's and stickies and fight it out that way.

I put up a bocage 3 v 3 replay where I used it if you want to see.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=10514.0

[Groundfire]

I was watching that replay, and it's kinda hard to judge the effectiveness of the garands since you blobbed 5 squads most of the game. 

but after they got widdled down, and i zoomed in on the rifleman, it did look like a noticeable difference.
Garands firing every 2-3 seconds and what not.

[brn4meplz]

The master list says "Riflemen now get double fire rate" It does work, and it is a good T4. it just wasn't worded in the launcher very well.

For the players out there who actually rifle spam, this gives them a way to stay competitive and viable throughout a match without sinking all their munitions into upgrades on rifles. It actually turns an Infantry Company into an Infantry company.

[Mgallun74]

hmmmm, still undecided if i want this or tank reapers... hmmm.

[salan]

I was watching that replay, and it's kinda hard to judge the effectiveness of the garands since you blobbed 5 squads most of the game. 

Smokaz taught me to blob and blob often !  well i had 21 rifles, 4 tanks and a smattering of mg/mortars.. I only had rifles to use so i had to blob ... sigh!

[Tymathee]

if this affected things other than the garand i'd get it other wise i dont find it very useful as it only affects one weapon,

Cohesion (Allied infantry & support teams gain 2% health per man (max 50%)
Tank Reapers (ATGs, Bazookas, stickies gain 33% penetration, 25% more accurate, 20% more damage)
Mobile Cover (Shermans & Halftracks provide heavy cover to infantry in large surrounding area)
Artillery HQ(Grants additional uses of off-map artillery)   

even cohesion and mobile cover seem more useful

arty hq on the other hand....ooh, i get another free off-map so powerful :p

[RikiRude]

I like the idea of the carbine thing. but honestly nothing compares to tank reapers. consider this.

ATGs become way better, this means you know longer have to buy AP rounds for them and you get the extra damage and stuff, so its like free AP rounds on anything you recrew. Zookas and stickies also preform much better, which will make rangers much more effieceint AT as well. This gives you munis to spend on BARs or other upgrades for your rifles. With this tanks which are the biggest problem are taken down a notch. Run a bunch of shermans to deal with infantry and you are set.

I think if you run all 14 rifles in your company then carbines is the way to go. Also I imagine combining this with smoke nades on all your rifles you have a pretty formadable force.

[Mgallun74]

also count in veterancy on ATG and Rifleman, Rangers.. if you good, and you get them to vet 3 you get 20, 25 per more damage... that would make TR on a vet3 rifleman with a zook produce 40 per more damage... yummmy...

57 gets even better too, but for me it can barely keep them past vet 1 lol.