[All] Armored Cars.

Mysthalin Offline

Tired King of Stats

Posts: 9028

« on: June 27, 2009, 05:21:32 pm »

In this thread, I would like to draw everyone's attention to the rather "here and there" state that light vehicles are currently in. The pricing on them, at least to me, seems exceedingly sporadic, and some units require upgrades to become at all useful (M8), whereas others cost the same as their other faction counterparts, yet fare considerably better.

I would find it accurate to believe that when it comes to light vehicles(and vehicles on the whole), manpower relfects the sheer firepower of a vehicle, and fuel represents the vehicle's survivability. Or at least, it should be done in that way.

I will be henceforth writing an overview of all the armored cars, their health/armor ratings, their firepower and their survivability, as well with my notes on what should be done with each unit.

============[ US ]============

M8 "Greyhound" Armored Car
Coming in at 290 MP and 50 FU.

The firepower on this unit is not really equal to a deathstar, however it is quite capable versus enemy infantry, and against the rear armor of some tanks - if it manages to get there.
I would believe it's firepower is priced quite indeed accordingly.

However, it's health is not at all up to par.
150 Health for 50 FU? Now, I understand you are allowed to attain skirts for 60 Mun, however that only brings you up to 300 health, which is actually less than a puma. Why should you not only pay the same ammount of Fuel, but also a considerable ammount of munitions for roughly the same ammount of survivability?

The speed on both the puma, and the greyhound is 6.4, with equal accelerations and decellerations tieing at 4.5. The dodge bonuses overall are also roughly the same versus simmilar weapons(for example sherman gun and P4 gun).

Suggestion : Make the greyhound cost a latent 35 FU for the vanilla version of it, with skirts coming in at another 20-25 FU. Upgrades that cost munitions are usualy ones that increase a unit's firepower, not their survivability, at least that is my opinion. The cost would still be higher than that of a puma when "skirted" due to the possible upgrades of the powerful Mine and the formidable .50 cal. Same 290 MP.

Notes :
1. The new availability system forbids the spamming of greyhounds.
2. The sole reason why M8s had become OP in vEiR : On Board Mechanics, is no longer implemented in the incarnation it used to be in the game.

T17 Armored Car
Coming in at 350 MP 90 FU.

The firepower of this unit is simply amazing - it's like an anti-tank capability wielding ostwind, and I would believe beefing up the price to as high as 400 MP would be quite acceptable.

However, yet again, the Fuel cost is simply not in line.

This unit uses greyhound armor, has the same speed, and has a laughable ammount of 175 health! With no upgrades to increase this!
Even a P4 is capable of 2 shotting it, and with a lucky critical a shrek at close range might actualy kill it instantly!

Consider that you pay 40 FU less for a puma. It means that you pay 55.56 percent the fuel cost for a whooping 77.15 percent larger health pool!
Consider that you pay 20 FU less for a british version of the staghound, which has 450 health - the "in theory" exact same unit. 77.78 percent the cost for a 157.14 percent larger health pool. Over. 2.5 times the health!

Suggestions :
a) Make it cost 390 MP, 50 FU. The manpower cost would quite make up for it's formidable gun, and the FU cost, even though it would equal the current puma, would take some of the gun's cost as well.
b) Make it cost 420 MP, 35 FU, with the ability to buy skirts which increase it's health to 300-350 HP for another 35 FU.

Notes :
1. Only 2 are available per company.
2. Only armor company users are capable of attaining this unit.
3. Does not have any upgrades, other than the repair kit.

============[ WM ]============

Sdkzf. 234 "Puma"
300 MP 50 FU.

The main gun : costs more than that of a greyhound, however is considerably less versatile. Higher damage output versus infantry, however. The MP cost may go down as much as to 250 MP.

The survivability : It stands at 310 Health, with theorethical dodge capabilities standing roughly the same as the greyhound. However, everyone is aware of it's "phase armour" : when all other units will take a shot that it rolled a dodge against into their face by balistics, the puma will always dodge such a shot, no matter where it hits : even dead center.
If you rolled a miss once, it's a miss forever, which greatly adds to this unit's survivability. How much that is exactly, I am not prepared to count, as it would require a few weeks worth of sheer university level physics calculations, but we can all conservatively assume it dodges at least 25 percent more than other units would in their place.

Suggestion :
I would personaly hold the puma as one of the "best balanced" armored car of them all, therefore I would offer only minor fine tuning to it. 270 MP, 60 FU.
The upgunning on the puma offers considerable debuffs to it's anti-infantry firepower while hardly making it a good anti-tank unit. Make it 60-75 MU and give it the same stats as the greyhound gun, x1.5 penetration of hte greyhound gun.

Notes :
3 max per company without paying PPs, no repair bunkers to recycle them endlessly.

============[ CW ]============

M3 Stuart
295 MP, 50 FU.

The main gun, after the rather intense changing, is still a bit weaker than the greyhound one, so I would warrant a small price decrease in this departement to up to 260 MP.

The survivability : 300 health, seperate armor that has very few dodge bonuses, as well as a high profile. Due to this, it should go down to 75 percent that of my proposed Puma : 45 FU.

Suggestion :
The cost should become roughly 290 MP, 45 FU, with it getting the greyhound gun, rather than it's own version of the 37mm. Canister round should become based on a cooldown of 3 minutes with a cost of 100 MU.

Notes :
1. Currently noone uses it, except Chuck Norris.
2. Check note 1.

Mark VII "Tetrarch"
320 MP 70 FU.

The main gun has rather recently recieved a nerf to it's damage per shot, which meant that it needed 1-2 extra penetrating shots vs any of it's targets to kill them... Of course, the tetrarch's target is the tank : it's what the tet is made to do : but only after getting the LJA which boosts it's penetration. It also gets smoke shells it can fire upon a small area to support infantry. Change is needed, IMO.

The survivability is rather impressive : 8 speed, greyhound armor, lower profile, 300 health, and it comes on a glider. New repair system gives it a good hit in it's survivability. Small change is required.

Suggestion :
Noone buys it without LJA anyways, so just make it have the gun upgraded by default. Having to pay 70 MU just to make the unit useful, like 60 MU with the greyhound, is not acceptable, in my oppinion.
350 MP, 60 FU with an in-built LJA.

Notes :
1. Is doctrinal, is a T2.
2. Is limited, like all others, by availability.
3. Unbelievable micro intensive and hard to use effectively. High pay-offs if used well, however.

T17 "Staghound" CW
350 MP 70 FU.

Rather mediocre gun that has quite a long reload time. Decent range, yet rather crappy penetration vs tanks and not good accuracy vs infantry. Best .50 cal(and best mounted MG) in the game for 75 munitions, however. Change needed.

Survivability is amazing : greyhound armor with 450 health! Heaviest armoured car in the game. Change in cost needed.

Suggestion :
Change the price to 300 MP, 100 FU. It will take a beating, and keep on ticking, and the .50 cal upgrade(that costs a lot) will allow it to also pack a punch "en revanche". Also, give it "repair Medium" so that it can actualy heal up properly after being engaged in battle, not just 40 percent of it's health. 45 MU for repairs instead of the current 30 MU, however.

============[ PE ]============

The Armored Car
275 MP, 50 FU.

Same gun, same armor as puma. 220 HP. However, is faster and has access to Overdrive.
Not much to say about this unit, it is quite indeed powerful in the right hands, and I think this would prove an even better hallmark than the puma does : it's even more perfectly balanced.

Suggestion :
280 MP, 40 FU - basicaly due to the fact it's faster, it may cost even more than that, but PE is quite dependable on vehicles, so the fuel cost should go down.

Hotchkiss Light Tank
295 MP, 50 FU.

The main gun, most people will agree, is rather pathetic, unless it's upgunned - then it penetrates like hell, for rather poor damage.

The survivability : 300 health, poorer dodge than greyhound, also is slower. Simmilar to stuart, overall.

Suggestion :
290 MP, 40 FU, with it getting the greyhound gun instead. Upgunning should cost 30 FU and tripple the penetration, so it becomes more like a slower tetrarch.

In conclusion

I think that my list of pricing would help balance light vehicles considerably : units that are not used (hotchkiss, stuart) would actualy become useful, whereas units that have been a tad overused (brittish staghound) would fall in line with the others.

I would also like to draw everyone's eyes to the fact that most armored cars have ~300 health, and it is for this reason that I would petition for "Repair Light" to repair 300 health instead of what it is currently (200 health), with the same repair rate maintained(meaning it would repair 50 percent longer), as to increase the longevity of light vehicles at least slightly.
In relation to this, I think it would be fair that "Repair Medium" be changed to 600 health being repaired instead of 400, with also the same repair rate being maintained. It is simply not fair that a StuG or M10 from 5 percent health and all criticals endured(main gun destroyed, engine destroyed immobilised) will heal back up to full health, whereas an engine damaged P4 or Sherman will not be able to heal themselves the critical should they fall below 33 percent health after having hit a mine, sticky or panzerfaust.


« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 06:35:58 am by Mysthalin »	Logged

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