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[All] Armored Cars.
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Topic: [All] Armored Cars. (Read 6477 times)
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Mysthalin
Tired King of Stats
Posts: 9028
[All] Armored Cars.
«
on:
June 27, 2009, 05:21:32 pm »
In this thread, I would like to draw everyone's attention to the rather "here and there" state that light vehicles are currently in. The pricing on them, at least to me, seems exceedingly sporadic, and some units require upgrades to become at all useful (M8), whereas others cost the same as their other faction counterparts, yet fare considerably better.
I would find it accurate to believe that when it comes to light vehicles(and vehicles on the whole), manpower relfects the sheer firepower of a vehicle, and fuel represents the vehicle's survivability. Or at least, it should be done in that way.
I will be henceforth writing an overview of all the armored cars, their health/armor ratings, their firepower and their survivability, as well with my notes on what should be done with each unit.
============[ US ]============
M8 "Greyhound" Armored Car
Coming in at 290 MP and 50 FU.
The firepower on this unit is not really equal to a deathstar, however it is quite capable versus enemy infantry, and against the rear armor of some tanks - if it manages to get there.
I would believe it's firepower is priced quite indeed accordingly.
However, it's health is not at all up to par.
150 Health for 50 FU? Now, I understand you are allowed to attain skirts for 60 Mun, however that only brings you up to 300 health, which is actually less than a puma. Why should you not only pay the same ammount of Fuel, but also a considerable ammount of munitions for roughly the same ammount of survivability?
The speed on both the puma, and the greyhound is 6.4, with equal accelerations and decellerations tieing at 4.5. The dodge bonuses overall are also roughly the same versus simmilar weapons(for example sherman gun and P4 gun).
Suggestion :
Make the greyhound cost a latent 35 FU for the vanilla version of it, with skirts coming in at another 20-25 FU. Upgrades that cost munitions are usualy ones that increase a unit's firepower, not their survivability, at least that is my opinion. The cost would still be higher than that of a puma when "skirted" due to the possible upgrades of the powerful Mine and the formidable .50 cal. Same 290 MP.
Notes :
1. The new availability system forbids the spamming of greyhounds.
2. The sole reason why M8s had become OP in vEiR : On Board Mechanics, is no longer implemented in the incarnation it used to be in the game.
T17 Armored Car
Coming in at 350 MP 90 FU.
The firepower of this unit is simply amazing - it's like an anti-tank capability wielding ostwind, and I would believe beefing up the price to as high as 400 MP would be quite acceptable.
However, yet again, the Fuel cost is simply not in line.
This unit uses greyhound armor, has the same speed, and has a laughable ammount of 175 health! With no upgrades to increase this!
Even a P4 is capable of 2 shotting it, and with a lucky critical a shrek at close range might actualy kill it instantly!
Consider that you pay 40 FU less for a puma. It means that you pay 55.56 percent the fuel cost for a whooping 77.15 percent larger health pool!
Consider that you pay 20 FU less for a british version of the staghound, which has 450 health - the "in theory" exact same unit. 77.78 percent the cost for a
157.14
percent larger health pool. Over. 2.5 times the health!
Suggestions :
a) Make it cost 390 MP, 50 FU. The manpower cost would quite make up for it's formidable gun, and the FU cost, even though it would equal the current puma, would take some of the gun's cost as well.
b) Make it cost 420 MP, 35 FU, with the ability to buy skirts which increase it's health to 300-350 HP for another 35 FU.
Notes :
1. Only 2 are available per company.
2. Only armor company users are capable of attaining this unit.
3. Does not have any upgrades, other than the repair kit.
============[ WM ]============
Sdkzf. 234 "Puma"
300 MP 50 FU.
The main gun : costs more than that of a greyhound, however is considerably less versatile. Higher damage output versus infantry, however. The MP cost may go down as much as to 250 MP.
The survivability : It stands at 310 Health, with theorethical dodge capabilities standing roughly the same as the greyhound. However, everyone is aware of it's "phase armour" : when all other units will take a shot that it rolled a dodge against into their face by balistics, the puma will always dodge such a shot, no matter where it hits : even dead center.
If you rolled a miss once, it's a miss forever, which greatly adds to this unit's survivability. How much that is exactly, I am not prepared to count, as it would require a few weeks worth of sheer university level physics calculations, but we can all conservatively assume it dodges at least 25 percent more than other units would in their place.
Suggestion :
I would personaly hold the puma as one of the "best balanced" armored car of them all, therefore I would offer only minor fine tuning to it. 270 MP, 60 FU.
The upgunning on the puma offers considerable debuffs to it's anti-infantry firepower while hardly making it a good anti-tank unit. Make it 60-75 MU and give it the same stats as the greyhound gun, x1.5 penetration of hte greyhound gun.
Notes :
3 max per company without paying PPs, no repair bunkers to recycle them endlessly.
============[ CW ]============
M3 Stuart
295 MP, 50 FU.
The main gun, after the rather intense changing, is still a bit weaker than the greyhound one, so I would warrant a small price decrease in this departement to up to 260 MP.
The survivability : 300 health, seperate armor that has very few dodge bonuses, as well as a high profile. Due to this, it should go down to 75 percent that of my proposed Puma : 45 FU.
Suggestion :
The cost should become roughly 290 MP, 45 FU, with it getting the greyhound gun, rather than it's own version of the 37mm. Canister round should become based on a cooldown of 3 minutes with a cost of 100 MU.
Notes :
1. Currently noone uses it, except Chuck Norris.
2. Check note 1.
Mark VII "Tetrarch"
320 MP 70 FU.
The main gun has rather recently recieved a nerf to it's damage per shot, which meant that it needed 1-2 extra penetrating shots vs any of it's targets to kill them... Of course, the tetrarch's target is the tank : it's what the tet is made to do : but only after getting the LJA which boosts it's penetration. It also gets smoke shells it can fire upon a small area to support infantry. Change is needed, IMO.
The survivability is rather impressive : 8 speed, greyhound armor, lower profile, 300 health, and it comes on a glider. New repair system gives it a good hit in it's survivability. Small change is required.
Suggestion :
Noone buys it without LJA anyways, so just make it have the gun upgraded by default. Having to pay 70 MU just to make the unit useful, like 60 MU with the greyhound, is not acceptable, in my oppinion.
350 MP, 60 FU with an in-built LJA.
Notes :
1. Is doctrinal, is a T2.
2. Is limited, like all others, by availability.
3. Unbelievable micro intensive and hard to use effectively. High pay-offs if used well, however.
T17 "Staghound" CW
350 MP 70 FU.
Rather mediocre gun that has quite a long reload time. Decent range, yet rather crappy penetration vs tanks and not good accuracy vs infantry. Best .50 cal(and best mounted MG) in the game for 75 munitions, however. Change needed.
Survivability is amazing : greyhound armor with 450 health! Heaviest armoured car in the game. Change in cost needed.
Suggestion :
Change the price to 300 MP, 100 FU. It will take a beating, and keep on ticking, and the .50 cal upgrade(that costs a lot) will allow it to also pack a punch "en revanche". Also, give it "repair Medium" so that it can actualy heal up properly after being engaged in battle, not just 40 percent of it's health. 45 MU for repairs instead of the current 30 MU, however.
============[ PE ]============
The Armored Car
275 MP, 50 FU.
Same gun, same armor as puma. 220 HP. However, is faster and has access to Overdrive.
Not much to say about this unit, it is quite indeed powerful in the right hands, and I think this would prove an even better hallmark than the puma does : it's even more perfectly balanced.
Suggestion :
280 MP, 40 FU - basicaly due to the fact it's faster, it may cost even more than that, but PE is quite dependable on vehicles, so the fuel cost should go down.
Hotchkiss Light Tank
295 MP, 50 FU.
The main gun, most people will agree, is rather pathetic, unless it's upgunned - then it penetrates like hell, for rather poor damage.
The survivability : 300 health, poorer dodge than greyhound, also is slower. Simmilar to stuart, overall.
Suggestion :
290 MP, 40 FU, with it getting the greyhound gun instead. Upgunning should cost 30 FU and tripple the penetration, so it becomes more like a slower tetrarch.
In conclusion
I think that my list of pricing would help balance light vehicles considerably : units that are not used (hotchkiss, stuart) would actualy become useful, whereas units that have been a tad overused (brittish staghound) would fall in line with the others.
I would also like to draw everyone's eyes to the fact that most armored cars have ~300 health, and it is for this reason that I would petition for "Repair Light" to repair 300 health instead of what it is currently (200 health), with the same repair rate maintained(meaning it would repair 50 percent longer), as to increase the longevity of light vehicles at least slightly.
In relation to this, I think it would be fair that "Repair Medium" be changed to 600 health being repaired instead of 400, with also the same repair rate being maintained. It is simply not fair that a StuG or M10 from 5 percent health and all criticals endured(main gun destroyed, engine destroyed immobilised) will heal back up to full health, whereas an engine damaged P4 or Sherman will not be able to heal themselves the critical should they fall below 33 percent health after having hit a mine, sticky or panzerfaust.
«
Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 06:35:58 am by Mysthalin
»
Logged
Ununoctium
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1256
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #1 on:
June 27, 2009, 05:30:45 pm »
I can't find much wrong with this.
Logged
Quote from: shockcoil
Quote from: CrazyWR
My tigers get penetrated by everything. Its really really frustrating.
Your tiger is a whore
gamesguy2
Honoured Member
Posts: 2238
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #2 on:
June 27, 2009, 05:41:17 pm »
The AC has 220 hp, not 280.
Logged
Skaevola
EIR Veteran
Posts: 175
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #3 on:
June 27, 2009, 05:46:50 pm »
Quote from: Ununoctium on June 27, 2009, 05:30:45 pm
I can't find much wrong with this.
I can, but I'll only start with the part that makes me facepalm so hard :
Quote
The upgunning on the puma offers considerable debuffs to it's anti-infantry firepower
while hardly increasing it's anti-vehicle capabilities.
Have you ever
used
an upgunned puma?
«
Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 05:48:31 pm by Skaevola
»
Logged
Mysthalin
Tired King of Stats
Posts: 9028
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #4 on:
June 27, 2009, 05:51:56 pm »
My bad gamesguy, will fix ASAP
.
Skaevola, yes I have, actualy, I had a 28 puma company back in vEiR...
I know it only makes it good vs light vehicles, it's not gonna take on shermans well enough to consider buying the upguns - maybe that's the reason you see basicaly none of them?
Logged
gamesguy2
Honoured Member
Posts: 2238
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #5 on:
June 27, 2009, 05:58:52 pm »
Quote from: Mysthalin on June 27, 2009, 05:51:56 pm
Skaevola, yes I have, actualy, I had a 28 puma company back in vEiR...
I know it only makes it good vs light vehicles, it's not gonna take on shermans well enough to consider buying the upguns - maybe that's the reason you see basicaly none of them?
Puma upgun does more damage to tommies and commandos than the regular version.
It only decreases anti-infantry firepower against regular infantry armor. Its quite possibly better against rangers and airborne with the upgun as well. There is a very good reason for that. The upgun acts like a tank cannon and generally ignores modifiers(thought it has higher acc vs soldier armor for some reason), while the regular gun is modified by things like airborne and elite armor.
Logged
Skaevola
EIR Veteran
Posts: 175
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #6 on:
June 27, 2009, 06:01:15 pm »
How many of them were upgunned?
Obviously a 300 mp 50 fuel unit is not going to take on a sherman, but it will (if you get slightly lucky or have any sort of support) will take on an m10 (true story) and can easily take out things like howitzers or other artillery pieces in the backfield. Not to mention they are excellent at taking out repairing tanks or escaping units and can 1v1 any light vehicle and take it on (except perhaps a staghound or a tetrarch.
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Pak88mm
EIR Veteran
Posts: 423
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #7 on:
June 27, 2009, 08:21:16 pm »
M8 microed well can wreck havok. Dumbing it down is not a good thing. It can skip away from schrecks and kite em. Making them better is a nono.
T17 can rape infantry very well and seem to stand well to armor hit like the greyhound.....what? yeah leave it how it is. You are trying to make M8s and T17 front line units which they arent. They are scouts and fast hitters. A good player can keep both alive for a while. Now you are trying to make them dumb down. Not good at all.
Puma is fine. 50mm upgrade should do better penetration than 37mm pumas by alot more if anything unlocking at upgrade for its main and 20mm to do more damage would be better at the cost of either health or speed. But its fine now and sorry but 50mm doesnt rape infantry cuz if it did everyone would be fielding them.
Armored Car is OK but it still can gain a few buff with health and ability to dodge lazer beam RRs and zooks but then again if it did then nothing would stop it. Right now its an AT magnet and ill be dammed if i seen more than 5 vet 3 acs in the entire mod let alone vet 2s..compared to well vetted greyhounds. It can use some love but really i cant really say that with a passion.
HotchKiss is pure shit. This thing is just a horrid pile of shit. It cant kill shit i know its a fucking 1930s relic but fuck man at least give it greyhound killing power. The stuka upgrade is a joke since it fires 4 rockets and still has a long reload time. Everything rapes it and it adds more micro issues. I would like to see dumbdown a bit by adding more AI power and same for AT so it can fend it self from everything thats LT armor.
Stag...i dont know. I feel is pure shit yet i have yet to use it so i cant really comment on it.
Tech is fine. It can dodge well and circle jerk most axis tanks. IMO thats what they are good for is harrasing axis tanks and light armor while the heavies do the wrecking. Create confusion.
Stuart is crap. Yes it needs buffs. Either on the AT or Better yet AI. The canister shot is 1 shot deal and make the stuart really a martyr of allah. I agree with giving canister a cool down thus allowing a brit player to deal with axis blobs very well. Though largely a crappy AT platform the stuart did excel in AI with 3 mgs on board and of course canister. I wouldnt mind it getting a buff.
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Exactly.
There is only so many times you can slaughter Lt Apollo, Rocksitter, and Alwaysloseguy24 before you get bored and fall asleep.
-GamesGuy-
Most Hated player in EiR....Pak88Mm
wildsolus
Donator
Posts: 807
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #8 on:
June 27, 2009, 08:34:24 pm »
AC's are ok? lazer beam rr's?
you play PE don't you?
Logged
lol
lol x2
Lai
Propaganda Minister
Posts: 3060
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #9 on:
June 27, 2009, 08:39:09 pm »
Wow, the staggy indeed has 450 hp. It says 150 hp in coh stats.
Logged
EliteGren
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6106
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #10 on:
June 27, 2009, 08:39:52 pm »
Has anyone seen the Armored car leaderboard for PE?
Right, im the only one with a vetted AC and I still think its a useless pile of crap.
«
Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 08:41:56 pm by EliteGren
»
Logged
Quote from: deadbolt on December 30, 2010, 09:14:16 am
i prefer to no u
Quote from: deadbolt on July 30, 2012, 08:08:48 am
Don't knock it til uve tried it bitchface, this isn't anything like salads version. Besides u said a semois conversion would never work, now look that's the most played map, ohgodwhy.jpg r u map lead
Glaze
EIR Veteran
Posts: 112
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #11 on:
June 27, 2009, 08:46:18 pm »
The armor and health sucks for the PE AC something awful, but it can rip apart unsuspecting infantry. Last time I used them I went and suicide rushed a sniper. Only lost one (almost two) and killed that sucker, totally worth it!
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Glaze (US)!
I am also...
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wildsolus
Donator
Posts: 807
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #12 on:
June 27, 2009, 08:56:00 pm »
the armored car is like the croc only in the way that it probably is never gonna make it out of a battle regardless.
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Malevolence
Donator
Posts: 1871
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #13 on:
June 27, 2009, 09:16:17 pm »
Frankly manpower should represent unit survivability, not fuel. That way we would have a unified resource representing a unit's "not-die-itude" across the board. Munitions should be representative of a more powerful offense than a normal unit, which it currently does, and Fuel should be a supplemental vehicle-based survivability.
To this end I recommend changing Greyhound skirts to fuel, among several other upgrade price tweaks (such as tank commanders for British, overdrive, et c.)
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Akranadas' Greatest Hits, Volume 1:
Quote from: Akranadas
Vet has nothing to do with unit preformance.
Quote from: Akranadas
We are serious about enforcing this, and I am sure you all want to be able to have your balance thought considered by the development team with some biased, sensationalist coming into your thread and ruining it.
CrazyWR
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3616
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #14 on:
June 28, 2009, 12:23:01 am »
t17 can buy WP rounds as well as repairs.
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Quote from: Ununoctium on September 03, 2009, 07:45:25 am
1. New tactics? it's like JAWS, first one in the water dies
Quote from: jackmccrack on February 09, 2012, 12:47:54 pm
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jackmccrack
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2484
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #15 on:
June 28, 2009, 12:44:16 am »
Man the T17 sucks and needs a buff, it's even more of a glass cannon than the PE AC (until vet 1, lulz)
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Let's talk about PIATs in a car.
Baine
Steven Spielberg
Posts: 3713
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #16 on:
June 28, 2009, 03:05:19 am »
Quote from: Pak88mm on June 27, 2009, 08:21:16 pm
M8 microed well can wreck havok. Dumbing it down is not a good thing. It can skip away from schrecks and kite em. Making them better is a nono.
T17 can rape infantry very well and seem to stand well to armor hit like the greyhound.....what? yeah leave it how it is. You are trying to make M8s and T17 front line units which they arent. They are scouts and fast hitters. A good player can keep both alive for a while. Now you are trying to make them dumb down. Not good at all.
Puma is fine. 50mm upgrade should do better penetration than 37mm pumas by alot more if anything unlocking at upgrade for its main and 20mm to do more damage would be better at the cost of either health or speed. But its fine now and sorry but 50mm doesnt rape infantry cuz if it did everyone would be fielding them.
Armored Car is OK but it still can gain a few buff with health and ability to dodge lazer beam RRs and zooks but then again if it did then nothing would stop it. Right now its an AT magnet and ill be dammed if i seen more than 5 vet 3 acs in the entire mod let alone vet 2s..compared to well vetted greyhounds. It can use some love but really i cant really say that with a passion.
HotchKiss is pure shit. This thing is just a horrid pile of shit. It cant kill shit i know its a fucking 1930s relic but fuck man at least give it greyhound killing power. The stuka upgrade is a joke since it fires 4 rockets and still has a long reload time. Everything rapes it and it adds more micro issues. I would like to see dumbdown a bit by adding more AI power and same for AT so it can fend it self from everything thats LT armor.
Stag...i dont know. I feel is pure shit yet i have yet to use it so i cant really comment on it.
Tech is fine. It can dodge well and circle jerk most axis tanks. IMO thats what they are good for is harrasing axis tanks and light armor while the heavies do the wrecking. Create confusion.
Stuart is crap. Yes it needs buffs. Either on the AT or Better yet AI. The canister shot is 1 shot deal and make the stuart really a martyr of allah. I agree with giving canister a cool down thus allowing a brit player to deal with axis blobs very well. Though largely a crappy AT platform the stuart did excel in AI with 3 mgs on board and of course canister. I wouldnt mind it getting a buff.
This so much.
Logged
Mysthalin
Tired King of Stats
Posts: 9028
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #17 on:
June 28, 2009, 03:27:55 am »
I did indeed expect axis players to be the first ones to jump down this thread's throath, as it proposes equalisation between the armored car's survivability in relation to their fuel costs : and currently, axis have it better(except the CW Staghound).
It is of no surprise that nerfing the staghound is endorsed by certain people, and the hotchkiss a buff, yet they will not agree to the greyhound getting a buff. You are entitled to your own opinion, but mine is stated in the OP.
Quote
How many of them were upgunned?
16 of them, and they almost took on Mountainman's OBM greyhound company... I needed field repairs too
. Back then they cost 85 mun to upgrade... damn expensive, heh.
At any rate, saying the puma upgun is fine as it is is purely not true : taking out REPAIRING tanks is not a good role for any unit : heck, if let's say rangers were only good at taking out kettenkrads and WM schwimmwaggens, it would also be not ok : every unit is good at taking out a unit that can't defend itself.
There is a reason noone uses the upguns(they cost 50 mun now), and you know it.
Another unit on the PE side, that costs simmilarly with an upgrade, is capable of just as much damage as the puma, and can disable tank engines every short while. Something is disrepant.
Quote
It only decreases anti-infantry firepower against regular infantry armor. Its quite possibly better against rangers and airborne with the upgun as well. There is a very good reason for that. The upgun acts like a tank cannon and generally ignores modifiers(thought it has higher acc vs soldier armor for some reason), while the regular gun is modified by things like airborne and elite armor.
Even though it ignores modifiers like tank cannons do, it does not have the splash damage to take out infantry effectively. The ROF is, rather obviously, also decreased when you upgun, so the puma on the whole really does loose anti-infantry firepower. I have seen a puma take out a full health sapper squad in one shot in a simmilar way I have seen a pershing killed by a bike : it can happen, but it's rare as hell.
Quote
more than 5 vet 3 acs in the entire mod
Userstupidname will probably have had more than that in his company alone, I've also seen some from brn4meplz, and that's just 2 PE players.
Logged
Baine
Steven Spielberg
Posts: 3713
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #18 on:
June 28, 2009, 03:33:22 am »
Quote from: Mysthalin on June 28, 2009, 03:27:55 am
Quote
more than 5 vet 3 acs in the entire mod
Userstupidname will probably have had more than that in his company alone, I've also seen some from brn4meplz, and that's just 2 PE players.
You know that the burst bug has been fixed right?
Logged
Mysthalin
Tired King of Stats
Posts: 9028
Re: [All] Armored Cars.
«
Reply #19 on:
June 28, 2009, 03:37:12 am »
Yes, I have noticed that with my ostwinds ^^.
The AC is a great unit, re-read the section on it that I had posted(the suggestion part).
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