The Tiger – An endangered species…

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[Akranadas]

6 Pounder gives no cover to the crew (due to this making the crew invisible all the time) so they end up being decrewed easily due to them basically being in 0 cover, which in COH is death to weak infantry units.

They have cloak, but have no first strike bonus, which means that its basically like sitting out in the open just shooting at things. The only time cloak is useful is for pretending like you don't have AT, in which the enemy just keeps moving forward, pops one shot at your 0 cover crew where it promptly dies.

Oh, Mortars can one shot the crew too.

Brits also don't have AP Rounds to fall back on to fight heavy tanks like Americans do with 57mm.

[SaintPauli]

The fact of the matter is that it’s impossible as axis to use blitzkrieg, where you break through the lines with tanks due to stickies and buttoning. Therefore the axis tank game has always been long range combat. This requires a combination of range and speed to be able to get the fuck out of Dodge. The Tiger used to be able to supplement durability for speed but that just does not work as well as it used to due to the evolving combat treats. Since the Tiger was designed stickies has gotten longer range and Fireflies + Buttoning were introduced (buttoning uses from Bren Carriers/Ban g Busses or while fired up). This forces the axis tank combat out to even longer distance and places an even higher importance on range and speed.

As long as the P4 outranges the Tiger it will always be more efficient in this new combat environment. Therefore you either have to nerf the range of the P4 or raise the Tiger to the same level as all the other axis medium/heavy  tanks (Hetzer 50, Panther 47.5, Jagd 45, King 45, P4 45).

If you don’t want to give it range with veterancy you could give it decreased moving accuracy with vet and the option to buy a tank commander (+5 range + 10 sight - possibly killable like MG on P4/Sherman). With a small buff like that the tiger will be viable again and still counter able in the exact same way.

And forget about the Tiger Ace. No amount of buffs on a single unit will make up for a T4.

[gamesguy2]

Therefore you either have to nerf the range of the P4 or raise the Tiger to the same level as all the other axis medium/heavy  tanks (Hetzer 50, Panther 47.5, Jagd 45, King 45, P4 45).

Tiger has 45 range with improved barrels.   What exactly is the problem?

[Warlight]

Therefore you either have to nerf the range of the P4 or raise the Tiger to the same level as all the other axis medium/heavy  tanks (Hetzer 50, Panther 47.5, Jagd 45, King 45, P4 45).

Tiger has 45 range with improved barrels.   What exactly is the problem?

So we are back to fixing flawed units with Doctrines again?  I thought we decided that a doctrain thats there to fix a broken units is a bad idea, or maybe that was just the churchill thread. 

Anyway The Tiger needs to be viable without improved barrels.

[gamesguy2]

Therefore you either have to nerf the range of the P4 or raise the Tiger to the same level as all the other axis medium/heavy  tanks (Hetzer 50, Panther 47.5, Jagd 45, King 45, P4 45).

Tiger has 45 range with improved barrels.   What exactly is the problem?

So we are back to fixing flawed units with Doctrines again?  I thought we decided that a doctrain thats there to fix a broken units is a bad idea, or maybe that was just the churchill thread. 

Anyway The Tiger needs to be viable without improved barrels.

Because things like ranged buffs can make a unit overpowered if you don't take them into account.

Tiger should never get 50 range.

[Guderian]

*idea for new ability*


Tank push / tank zeal / Blitzkrieg  (with something something)


Tanks are impervious to stickies/buttoning for 10-20 seconds

'icon will show'

To give blitzkrieg fanboys an non artillery ability that makes them able to assault.

[SaintPauli]

Therefore you either have to nerf the range of the P4 or raise the Tiger to the same level as all the other axis medium/heavy  tanks (Hetzer 50, Panther 47.5, Jagd 45, King 45, P4 45).

Tiger has 45 range with improved barrels.   What exactly is the problem?

It’s simply stupid to have and ability that you must choose to get on level with all the other heavy tanks. That if I want to choose something else? (everything else except precision strike is crap though).

Besides, the P4 still have longer range. Is there honestly any reason not to pick P4s with improved barrels instead of a tiger? As it is now there is ONLY 1 blitz build. The rest is crap in comparison. 

[gamesguy2]

Tiger has 45 range with improved barrels.   What exactly is the problem?

It’s simply stupid to have and ability that you must choose to get on level with all the other heavy tanks. That if I want to choose something else? (everything else except precision strike is crap though). [/quote]

Except you conveniently left out the pershing, which is the allied counterpart to the tiger.  Pershing only has 40 range, where as the tiger can get 45 range.

Is the pershing even more useless then?

Besides, the P4 still have longer range. Is there honestly any reason not to pick P4s with improved barrels instead of a tiger? As it is now there is ONLY 1 blitz build. The rest is crap in comparison. 

Ya improved barrels P4 gets owned by an AT gun.  Tiger can just one shot it with its 205 damage per shot gun and the biggest tank aoe in the game.

[EliteGren]

A tiger does 137.5 damage per shot, this can get up to 171 with heat rounds only.

[SaintPauli]

*idea for new ability*

Tank push / tank zeal / Blitzkrieg  (with something something)

Tanks are impervious to stickies/buttoning for 10-20 seconds
 

Closed skirts and Armored Glass: Skirts provides better protection against stickies and Tigers become immune it buttoning.

[gamesguy2]

A tiger does 137.5 damage per shot, this can get up to 165 with heat rounds only.

Vet 3 tiger has a 20% damage bonus.

137.5*1.25*1.2=206.25 damage per shot.

Add to the fact that tiger has very good accuracy vs infantry, we're getting into the "one shot that infantry squad" range, and it 2 shots M10s and M18s.

Closed skirts and Armored Glass: Skirts provides better protection against stickies and Tigers become immune it buttoning.

If you can't avoid a 25 range button with a 45 range tiger that can nearly one shot the bren squad...

[SaintPauli]

Except you conveniently left out the pershing, which is the allied counterpart to the tiger.  Pershing only has 40 range, where as the tiger can get 45 range.

Is the pershing even more useless then?
 

Ill quote myself from my first post:
Note: some of the things things said here also goes for the Pershin who could use similar buffs (I do however consider the Pershin a way better tank in the current environment due to the higher speed and field repairs that gives you 300 extra HP each use and instant repairs critical)

Ya improved barrels P4 gets owned by an AT gun.  Tiger can just one shot it with its 205 damage per shot gun and the biggest tank aoe in the game.

I don’t think that will 1 shot an AT gun. Besides that’s only on vet 3. Until then it has about the same dam as a KT. Also you need to hit the stupid AT gun.  You are goanna be a long range. That 75% chance to hit the gun if the tiger targets that. Chances are it will target the (green cover) crew giving you only 28% chance to hit. Of cause these numbers are only if you stand still. If you move you only have half that chance. 

On top of that you Tiger needs to move its slow ass within range of the AT gun while under fire and suffering a serious risk of getting stickied or buttoned. Now what happens if you suddenly find out there is another AT gun? It doesn’t shondlike your tiger will ever make it to level 3…

[SaintPauli]

If you can't avoid a 25 range button with a 45 range tiger that can nearly one shot the bren squad...

It wasn’t about avoiding buttoning. It was about making an ability that could facilitate Blitzkrieg tactics (spearheading with tanks that blitz trough the enemy lines).

[gamesguy2]

Ill quote myself from my first post:
Note: some of the things things said here also goes for the Pershin who could use similar buffs (I do however consider the Pershin a way better tank in the current environment due to the higher speed and field repairs that gives you 300 extra HP each use and instant repairs critical)

Then let the tiger buy a speed bonus, problem solved.

And field repairs do not instantly repair criticals.   It repairs criticals the same way normal repair does it.  In fact its a pretty crappy ability IMO for a pershing.

You're going to take into account field repairs, which is tier 3, but you don't want to take into account improved barrels, which is a tier 2?

I don’t think that will 1 shot an AT gun. Besides that’s only on vet 3. Until then it has about the same dam as a KT. Also you need to hit the stupid AT gun.  You are goanna be a long range. That 75% chance to hit the gun if the tiger targets that. Chances are it will target the (green cover) crew giving you only 28% chance to hit. Of cause these numbers are only if you stand still. If you move you only have half that chance.  

If it hits the gun the splash will still hit the crew, and with such an obscenely high damage and splash it has a good chance to one shot decrew an AT gun, remember you only need to kill 2 guys.  I've had my KT one shot decrew AT guns before, a tiger with bigger splash and more damage would do it more often.

On top of that you Tiger needs to move its slow ass within range of the AT gun while under fire and suffering a serious risk of getting stickied or buttoned. Now what happens if you suddenly find out there is another AT gun? It doesn’t shondlike your tiger will ever make it to level 3…

Its called support and scouting.   Button squads are absurdly easy to remove.  In addition, you are way too careful with your tigers.   You limit yourself with the way you play.  You refuse to buy bikes and insist that your slow storms can scout, and then everytime you bring out a tiger you demand everyone else on your team to scout for you.  

If you just bought 4 bikes for your blitz company it would be 10x better, because you wouldn't be constantly be relying on your teammates to scout for you.

It wasn’t about avoiding buttoning. It was about making an ability that could facilitate Blitzkrieg tactics (spearheading with tanks that blitz trough the enemy lines).

Thats not what the tiger is for.   Its a long range(45 range is pretty long) support tank that does a ridiculous amount of damage to infantry and tanks alike.   The KT is the one for spearheading breakthroughs, not the tiger.

[SaintPauli]

]And field repairs do not instantly repair criticals.   It repairs criticals the same way normal repair does it.  In fact its a pretty crappy ability IMO for a pershing.

I have seen it instant repair a Sherman engine dam. It might be different from tank to tank.

You're going to take into account field repairs, which is tier 3, but you don't want to take into account improved barrels, which is a tier 2?

I was comparing the whole picture here. The Pershin get better abilities period. Besides it is a better tank because of its speed and has to worry about less treats. I can’t see how you can argue about that. Pershin is possibly the best tank in the game right now.

[/b] If it hits[/b]  the gun the splash will still hit the crew, and with such an obscenely high damage and splash it has a good chance to one shot decrew an AT gun, remember you only need to kill 2 guys

If it hits…
(14% to hit crew while moving)

Its called support and scouting.   Button squads are absurdly easy to remove.  In addition, you are way too careful with your tigers.   You limit yourself with the way you play.  You refuse to buy bikes and insist that your slow storms can scout, and then everytime you bring out a tiger you demand everyone else on your team to scout for you.   
 

I might be 2 careful but you are 2 reckless with you standard tigers. That’s why I usably have vet on mine and you don’t…

[gamesguy2]

I have seen it instant repair a Sherman engine dam. It might be different from tank to tank.

Its not.   ALL repair abilities repair criticals the same way.   Criticals can only be repaired once the tank hits a new health stage.  Once at 5% hp, once at 40% hp, and at 100% hp.

Of course field repairs can sometimes repair a critical instantly, but if it does a normal repair can do the same.

I was comparing the whole picture here. The Pershin get better abilities period. Besides it is a better tank because of its speed and has to worry about less treats. I can’t see how you can argue about that. Pershin is possibly the best tank in the game right now.

Improved barrels is also better than pretty much every non-tier 4 in armor doctrine.   Most of the abilities in armor doesnt even affect the pershing.

If it hits…
(14% to hit crew while moving)

Why are you trying to shoot it while moving?  In addition, thats not how it works.  If the shot hits the gun you think the splash damage magically dissapears?   You dont need to aim at the crew to kill the crew.   I've one shot decrewed tons of ATGs with my KT by hitting the gun.  The shot hits the gun, takes a chunk of hp off the gun, and the splash kills the two guys that operate the gun. 

Tiger will do that very often with its huge splash and insane damage.

I might be 2 careful but you are 2 reckless with you standard tigers. That’s why I usably have vet on mine and you don’t…

Conviction tigers were best used in EIR as throw away weapons, in fact the entire blitz company I had was designed to be thrown away.   If the 25 squads of volks with assault didn't give that away...

[SaintPauli]

If the shot hits the gun you think the splash damage magically dissapears?   You dont need to aim at the crew to kill the crew.   

The problem is that you can’t make it aim at the gun (higher chance) half the times it targets the crew.

in fact the entire blitz company I had was designed to be thrown away

OK, you’re a throw away and I’m an ace… 

[gamesguy2]

The problem is that you can’t make it aim at the gun (higher chance) half the times it targets the crew.

So what?  The other half the time it hits the gun and one shot decrews it.  Its not a problem unique to the tiger, regular tanks have it too.

OK, you’re a throw away and I’m an ace…  

An ace that loses games.

EDIT: Oh ya I forgot, vet 3 tiger with heat rounds 3 shots shermans.

Ya....

[Mysthalin]

No vet stug with no buffs 5-shots shermans .

With heat rounds they 4 shot shermans.

Why exactly is a vet 0 HR stug only 25 percent worse than a vet 3 HR tiger?

*skimpers off after pouring oil in the flame war*

[SaintPauli]

EDIT: Oh ya I forgot, vet 3 tiger with heat rounds 3 shots shermans.

A panther does the exact same damage as a tiger, has 7.5 longer range, better penetration, can shoot way more accurate on the move and can outrun the Sherman. Why would I ever use a Tiger to kill Shermans when it can’t catch them and has a 50% moveing accuracy penalty?