Armor_Elite

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[gamesguy2]

Looking up some stuff for the mine thread showed me this interesting little nugget relic decided to put in.

Apparently, tigers and only tigers(including KT and ace) have this special critical type called armor_elite.   All other tanks have just plain armor, including pershings and jagd.  This critical type doesn't appear to serve any purpose other than nerfing tigers.  

• Mines have a 25% chance to immobilize a tiger from full hp, with 75% chance for engine damage, where as all other vehicles only have engine damage.
• Tank/antitank guns hitting a tiger below 40% hp has a 25% chance to give engine damage.  Against regular tanks this only occurs if the shot was hitting the rear armor.
• Although apparently stickies have a 25% chance to do no critical(still does damage) against tigers, where as against all other armor it crits engine damage 100% of the time.

This is one of those relic's.... relics from a coh alpha or beta and just never got changed, rather like the engineer suppression tables.  Its obvious relic has long since forgotten about this since no other heavy tank, including the jagd, has this armor type.   I don't believe it serves any purpose in EIR and only makes balancing harder.   I propose just replacing tiger, ace, and KT's critical type with armor instead of armor_elite.

[Mysthalin]

I agree, also, engineer suppresion should be changed to match other unit suppression.

[spinn72]

i think KTs are hard enough to kill as it is!  There has to be some way of disabling these tanks which is cost effective, stickies and mines are the only real cost effective counters, unless you're able to get 3 ATgs on one, although most of the shots will bounce.  Otherwise its an "i win" button, which is pretty much is right now.  Engineers are engineers anyway, they're not usually frontline units, that's why their suppression is low, because if you flamer rush with these guys its much harder to kill than a couple of pios.


All you want to do gamesguy is make your already invincible army more invincible so your 2 Vet3 KTs (1 is almost vet3, the other vet3) will own the world and beat anyone you come against.

[Mysthalin]

I did not know engineers in EiR have a role different than flamer charging or minesweeping, maybe I am wrong and they give you a 50 percent callin time reduction if you keep them in your spawn or something, but as far as I know - they're in EiR to charge with flamers.

if you flamer rush with these guys its much harder to kill than a couple of pios.

Dirty lie :
Pioneer squad health : 140.
Engineer squad health : 165.

I did not 20 percent more HP and a higher chance to get the "flameback hit, squad dead" critical is "much harder to kill".

[Mukip]

Perhaps it represents the Tiger's notorious reputation for breaking down, which is why it's not shared by Panthers and Pershings.  Regardless, you have no evidence that it's not intentional on Relic's part.

[Tymathee]

Perhaps it represents the Tiger's notorious reputation for breaking down, which is why it's not shared by Panthers and Pershings.  Regardless, you have no evidence that it's not intentional on Relic's part.

exactly. I have to agree. Tigers should have a higher crit rate because they broke down so often in the war, this is probably intentional and I'm sure that someone other than you brought it up to them. You can talk negative about them all you want, but you're still playing their game and gave them money for it, and they're getting paid to make these games so obviously someone thought they were competent enough to create a game for their company to make them money.

[spinn72]

Perhaps it represents the Tiger's notorious reputation for breaking down, which is why it's not shared by Panthers and Pershings.  Regardless, you have no evidence that it's not intentional on Relic's part.

That's the only reason why they lost most of them lol.  More were abandoned than lost in battle.

[Warlight]

Perhaps it represents the Tiger's notorious reputation for breaking down, which is why it's not shared by Panthers and Pershings.  Regardless, you have no evidence that it's not intentional on Relic's part.

exactly. I have to agree. Tigers should have a higher crit rate because they broke down so often in the war, this is probably intentional and I'm sure that someone other than you brought it up to them. You can talk negative about them all you want, but you're still playing their game and gave them money for it, and they're getting paid to make these games so obviously someone thought they were competent enough to create a game for their company to make them money.

Ha, if we are going for realism now...

I spose we coulda just left tread breaker in its old state too. 

If you actualy read what he said, Sure, it would make mines slightly less effective (I.E. no more immobalized in green) but would mean that your stickies would be 100% effective at damaging engines al the time. 

Its would be the equivilent to the changes in fausts, except, stickies and mines would still work just as well as they do now. 

COH is not about realism, at least not in units and stats, if you want that go play Men of War. 

[Mukip]

There's a difference between realism and a gameplay mechanic inspired by reality.  COH has lots of gameplay mechanics which aren't realistic, but are inspired by real things.  Relic may have taken the idea of Tigers breaking down a lot and implemented it in the form of them being more likely to get immobilized.  A Panther is better than a Sherman in gameplay terms because that's the way it was in reality, but Shermans don't die in one hit because they aren't going for that sort of realism.  etc.  Anyway, I'm not arguing for mines immobilising Tigers or realism, just countering the arguement gamesguy put forth that Relic "forgot about" it or didn't intend it.  They probably did intend it to be this way, since they are the ones who put it in.

[Guderian]

I don't care about inspired ''realism''

This argument failed the moment it was used in comparison.

Especially since this is a modification.

[Skaevola]

If they added it to the kt they didn't just "forget" about it, the KT is relatively new.

[Unkn0wn]

I doubt it represents them 'breaking down' in reality as it was even more common for a Panther to break down.
Personally I would say its fine on the KT but really serves no purpose on the Tiger in this modification.
(Considering the Tiger already has a hard enough time being a competitive tank as it stands currently)

[Killer344]

I knew it from personal experience , never let a tiger get hit by a 57 when it has less than 45%HP lolz, and yeah, it should be changed, thanks to the new repairs though.

[Mukip]

I don't care about inspired ''realism''

This argument failed the moment it was used in comparison.

Especially since this is a modification.

It failed why, because you said so?  No arguement = Don't bother posting.

COH as a WW2 game is inspired by real life to a certain degree since it's the setting for the game, to the extent than a Tiger is better than a Sherman etc, it's the obvious fact of the matter.  COH is not realistic, but is based on real things such as machine guns stopping mass infantry attacks (suppression mechanic) etc.

I doubt it represents them 'breaking down' in reality as it was even more common for a Panther to break down.
Personally I would say its fine on the KT but really serves no purpose on the Tiger in this modification.
(Considering the Tiger already has a hard enough time being a competitive tank as it stands currently)

German tanks were on a whole less reliable, I'm not saying it's precisely realistic or should be.  Tommies had grenades just like everybody else, but they don't in COH because Relic said so for gameplay reasons, it doesn't mean Relic thought Brits had less grenades than everybody else.  It's entirely possible it was an inspiration for this vulnerability to being immobilised.  And anyway the point in the end wasn't that it was realistic, but that Relic wanted Tigers to have this flaw and not other heavy tanks, contrary to the OPs views, because they are the ones who put it in.

[Bubz]

It's neither a buff or a nerf, from one side it removes atguns 25% chance of engine damage, on the other hand stickies would be as effective as on other tanks. Considering the cost of the current tiger I would leave it as is, 57mm should be hard counter to tigers any day.

[Jazlizard]

I have now seen a KT be immobilized 8 times by a mine. In fact I have never seen it get engine damage, always straight to immobilized, probably bad luck but dam.

Engine damage makes the KT crawl (more then it already does). It's basically destroyed engine speed on any other tank. For the tiny munitions that mines costs I think that's a pretty good deal and would have to agree with gamesguy.

I'm even fine with stickies going to 100% chance vs 75% chance, it's not as hard to stick a KT as it is other tanks due to it's incredibly slow speed.

I didn't know about the ATG thing, I guess that explains a lot now.

[Bubz]

Nope, stickies can be kited with any tank, just use a little support. And it's far easier to get a 57mm shot than a sticky succesfully, that is why it's more a buff than a nerf to those kind of heavy tanks, and why you probably agree on that change.

[Jazlizard]

Hey thanks for telling me why I agree on something, I appreciate it.  

Of course it's easier to get a 57mm shot off, I never said it wasn't, what I did say that it's easier to stick a KT then any other tank in the game due to it's slow speed.

Obviously the reason you agree with not changing it is because this only affects axis tanks  

[Bubz]

Yes actually, it affects  the heaviest armored tanks in the games with the highest healt.
As you said, it's easier to hit a mine or get shot by 57mms than getting hit by a sticky. Nothing more to say. Only thing I would change is the immobilization rate from full healt, which regardless of the tank is still a bitch.

[Jazlizard]

That's mainly what I'd like to see changed, a 25% chance to immobilize a green health KT is crazy imo.