Improved Armor

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[Tymathee]

Just thinking. 25% health for m10's and m18's are nice but I don't think that this helps them that much. (from 400 to 500 health)  It's basically one more shot, and they'll probably be crippled by the shot before the extra one anyway.

They both have range 45, the standard axis tank has range 40. Panthers have 47.5 and Tigers 40. How about maybe a 5-10 range boost which would m10's and m18's much more useful and would strengthen something they're already good at but don't excel.

Even with the extra range, it wont be over powered because the sight is 35, so the only way you can use the extra range is with sight but since the m10 is usually a chasing vehicle and the m18 is a ambush vehicle, you can get that one extra shot in that you wouldn't before, and I think that's a lot better than 100 more health.

[bbsmith]

I love improved armor. It gives my m10s and hellcats an extra hit from most tanks. Helps me keep them alive while trying to kite. I do agree that it doesn't really feel like a T3 though.

[Atlanton]

Yeah. I don't play armor all that much, but a 25% health bonus to a glass cannon doesn't sound incredibly useful as a T3.

However, an M10 with a range of 50 would be hax.  

[spinn72]

when you come to it, a range boost can really significantly make any tank awesome.  Just look at the firefly, and how it relies completely on range to win.  A p4 will beat it in a 1v1 if it wasnt for the range.

I'm thinking range boosts should be left to T3/T4 and should be +5 at most.  Remember if you have the longest range tank, you are almost completely invulnerable to enemy fire with the exception of ATGs, marders and 88s (although a FF outranges a marder with a Vet2 CCT).

30% extra health maybe??  It would make it more like a sherman in terms of health then.  Otherwise insta moving ability???

[bbsmith]

It currently increases their hp from 400 to 500.

A 30 percent increase would only be 520. That's no where close to a Sherman, unless your talking about the firefly which has 550.

[acker]

I really like the range boost idea.

Improved Armor is already a T3, so a range increase thing wouldn't be over the top for its tier (well, it might be depending on how much range it gets). I'm pretty sure that it would make the M10 much more survivable in skilled hands than a simple HP increase, but leaves the thing a glass cannon if it ever gets in range of dedicated AT.

It would nicely complement the T2s Mobile Warfare, Tungsten Tipping, and Mark Target. Mark Target reveals vehicles in the FOW for 20 seconds and gives an accuracy boost (nice for long-ranged warfare). Mobile Warfare makes targets 10% harder to hit, which makes the biggest difference at, once again, long-range combat (since most tanks have perfect accuracy at short/medium range, and only start to lose accuracy at long range). Tungsten Tipping near-perfectly offsets the M10's penetration decrease at long range (an increase from .84 to .99). M10s aren't exactly known for infantry sniping, so the range would be pretty difficult to exploit for unintended roles.

The one problem I can see is the M10's acceleration. The M10's crazy speed would be negligible for this apart from relocation and short-range combat; long-ranged tanks typically stop to fire, which makes acceleration/deceleration the most-important trait. The M10 accelerates at 1.7, which is .2 speed faster than the Firefly's acceleration. But it decelerates at 3.8 compared to the Firefly's 5.0, which is much worse. So I guess it evens out.

I suppose this would be problematic for the Hellcat, which can spot for itself. But the Hellcat's penetration is godawful.

It's not exactly as if this doesn't have a precedent, either. Blitz has improved barrels, which turns gives every tank a +10% range boost (unless its been recently nerfed or something). Which is +4 more range for most tanks, I think (total range of 44), except the Panther (total range 52.25). Improved Barrels is a T2, too, unless something's happened since 006h.

[Tymathee]

Well, then we probably need to decrease the health. So maybe 10-15% health bonus and +5 range? It would truly then be improved armor.

I just think that if you're going to give a bonus to two units that probably wont be used much since most get pershings, then it'd be nice to have a good bonus so you dont feel like you always have to go pershing cuz now you have a real anti tank ability with your tank destroyers and you can get osmething that can compliment it better like tank command or field repairs.

[acker]

I like +10 range better, to be honest. Any health increases allow the M10 to be used more effectively for a crush infantry role, which really isn't nice. M10 has a second or so of windup, so it has to stay in range longer to fire, too (I think).

[jackmccrack]

Currently Improved Armor does not work.

Thus we cannot judge its effectiveness.

[acker]

I love improved armor. It gives my m10s and hellcats an extra hit from most tanks. Helps me keep them alive while trying to kite. I do agree that it doesn't really feel like a T3 though.

Placebo effect, I guess.

[AmPM]

LoL

How would a +5 range boost work as far as balance?

+10 range is at least a t3, possibly even to powerful for a t3.

It would probably have to be something similar Improved Barrels.

[Warlight]

Considering the +10% range in a t4 for tank hunters.  Getting your stuff a +10 ranger for a t3...  well.  It dosn't rightly make sense.

[acker]

LoL

How would a +5 range boost work as far as balance?

+10 range is at least a t3, possibly even to powerful for a t3.

It would probably have to be something similar Improved Barrels.

Improved Armor (and the proposed change) is a T3. That only affects M10s/M18s. The Tanks Hunter's T4 Telescopic Sights will probably suck and need further balancing, but it still incorporates more than a +10% range bonus.

[jackmccrack]

Considering the +10% range in a t4 for tank hunters.  Getting your stuff a +10 ranger for a t3...  well.  It dosn't rightly make sense.

Armor Doctrine does not have Rangers.

[AmPM]

I would instead suggest as a t3 "Improved Optics", M18 and M10 gain +5 range (putting the m10 at 50 if I remember right) and an additional accuracy on the move modifier.

+10 range is nuts, +5 and another bonus is reasonable, as long as its not another direct boost to damage or penetration.

[acker]

I would instead suggest as a t3 "Improved Optics", M18 and M10 gain +5 range (putting the m10 at 50 if I remember right) and an additional accuracy on the move modifier.

Problem with that is that it cancels out the Moving Ability for M10 veterancy. How about a windup reduction instead, or an increase to Mark Target range?

[jackmccrack]

I prefer the +25% HP.

[acker]

I just don't think that buff fits the unit well, though. Like, M10s are supposed to be glass cannons thingys, giving it a straight-up health boost doesn't mesh well with that. It isn't as syngergistic with the other doctrine abilities like a range boost would be, either. And it promotes M10 crush.

[jackmccrack]

But the HP bonus gives it more time to shoot.

[acker]

But the HP bonus gives it more time to shoot.

That's the point of the ability, isn't it, to make the M10 more useful? But read my above post.

A range buff/something else would fit the unit better, I think. No squishing stormtroopers easier, for one thing...