4 Man BAR Squad

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[BeRzErKeR]

Please don't turn this into OMG mod...

[scrapking]

BAR upgrade does about 1.6x teh damage of a single LMG until close range where the LMG pulls ahead.

With Bipods and other doctrine buffs, they become quite good.

Armor Companies and AB companies are no worse off for countering elite infantry than ANY non-Luft PE company.

Rifles can also buy a cheap ass Zook, which works great at popping the best counter PE have to them, the IHT. Really, what allies need is to take the Rifle squad, assign upgrades, and make them all different infantry units in the launcher. Then you can feel like you have more variety, just like us PE =)

Ultimately the problem with any U.S. infantry upgrade is that it is going on a Rifle Squad.  The problem is the rifle squad itself.

Similarly, the problem with any upgrade to a Sherman, is that it is on a Sherman.

Now that doesn't apply across the board in every situation, some of the higher level doctrine abilities in Infantry Doc place a decent buff on Rifle Squads, and some of the higher level doctrine abilities in Armor Doctrine place a decent buff on Shermans.

But the problem starts with the basic building block. 

Bipods (and most other Infantry doctrine choices) aren't yet implemented, and cheap zooks are a mixed blessing.  Probably a much different story with T4 Tank Reapers I'm sure.  But without that... well by definition now you have less MU for other upgrades, 1 zook is hard pressed to kill off an IHT before the squad using the zook is itself killed... which means you pretty much NEED to run them in at least pairs.  And in the end, it's still on a rifle squad.  And that's just 1 doctrine.

Furthermore, and perhaps most importantly - PE is not suffering for want of someone to play it.  At least PE-Luftwaffe, anyhow.  From a PR perspective, I still argue that U.S. is simply not an attractive choice, and if giving them a few more unit options or something can make them more attractive, then its a good thing.

People seem to mostly play U.S. for specific units, available only in specific doctrines.  Airborne RRs.  Rangers.  Calliopes/ Pershings.  Coincidentally, those are the units you will see on the U.S. leaderboard.

I'm not sure what the right answer to all of this is, but I am sure that there is something kind of fucked up going on.

[Smokaz]

Even with the current british implementation, they are not satisfactorily equipped when it comes to indirect fire, lockdown, artillery and tiebreakers although they are much better now compared to how they were when they first got added into EIRR. I have no problem with this as PE also turns into a support faction next to wehr - but like scrap says, there's no problems related to manning wehrmacht and PE player slots - the problems are related to having enough allies and particulary american players around, there seems to be a small but active british playerbase. So Im gonna be frank with this, I think wehrmacht and PE should get the short end of the attention stick until this playerbase imbalance is sorted out. I invite you to sob and troll about it, but I still think beefing up the attractiveness of americans and definitely brits secondarily is in the best interest of the mod, for the sake of PLAYING alone if nothing else.

[salan]

I've been working on some concept units which we will diligently test and tweak ... and propose over the next bit.  If they turn out to work and fill what needs to be .. who knows you may see them.

you might not

[jackmccrack]

qft smokaz

[salan]

t I still think beefing up the attractiveness of americans and definitely brits secondarily is in the best interest of the mod, for the sake of PLAYING alone if nothing else.

I personally agree with teh part about making it more attractive, without any OP'ness involved.

the reason I personally want to test a 4 man bar squad is because it is NOT op in the first place.  Start small and tweak up till it fits.

but as I said, its purely conceptual for testing atm.

[AmPM]

There is nothing wrong with the Platforms, thats like saying PGs are terrible, which they aren't, or that the Sherman isn't basically IDENTICAL to the P4, which it is.

The illusion of inferiority is the problem.

Why aren't allies popular? No idea, I prefer PE, I like my light mechanized. I would have an Allied account but honestly, everything leading up to a completed company is boring as hell, and just feels like grinding. Its not fun. That's why a lot of Axis players don't want to roll Allies, the grind sucks.

Once the 75mm Churchill goes live though, I'm playing RE.

Why not Americans? Same reason I don't do Wehr, I played them for 2 years, to hell with the old factions.

But I can see this mod quickly turning into OMG v2, basically "It would be cool, so we should add it" being the philosophy. How is it balanced to start adding units to cover weaknesses in one faction without similar in others?

PE could use some new Arty type, the Panzerwerfer 42 for instance, since they have none. They could also use a Suppression tool, since they have none. Where does it stop? Eventually we end up with a crappy mod filled with random units just to add "flavor".

The reason Americans don't stand out, is because nothing they have is the BEST at its job other than the Artillery. They were made that way. With a wide variety of general purpose items and units, with a couple specialists thrown in. Its all about adaptability over specialized. Even the 57mm is that way, it can't cloak, and does nothing special, but it can use AP rounds whenever it once instead of in a specific situation.

[Smokaz]

There is nothing wrong with the Platforms, thats like saying PGs are terrible, which they aren't, or that the Sherman isn't basically IDENTICAL to the P4, which it is.

The illusion of inferiority is the problem.

Why aren't allies popular? No idea, I prefer PE, I like my light mechanized. I would have an Allied account but honestly, everything leading up to a completed company is boring as hell, and just feels like grinding. Its not fun. That's why a lot of Axis players don't want to roll Allies, the grind sucks.

Once the 75mm Churchill goes live though, I'm playing RE.

Why not Americans? Same reason I don't do Wehr, I played them for 2 years, to hell with the old factions.

But I can see this mod quickly turning into OMG v2, basically "It would be cool, so we should add it" being the philosophy. How is it balanced to start adding units to cover weaknesses in one faction without similar in others?

PE could use some new Arty type, the Panzerwerfer 42 for instance, since they have none. They could also use a Suppression tool, since they have none. Where does it stop? Eventually we end up with a crappy mod filled with random units just to add "flavor".

The reason Americans don't stand out, is because nothing they have is the BEST at its job other than the Artillery. They were made that way. With a wide variety of general purpose items and units, with a couple specialists thrown in. Its all about adaptability over specialized. Even the 57mm is that way, it can't cloak, and does nothing special, but it can use AP rounds whenever it once instead of in a specific situation.

Grinding is the same for everyone, no matter faction. What's your point? Nobody forces you into playing both sides, in fact the devs have made no statement in that direction. Parts of your post is just a misguided shriek of pain about PE gaps when you in fact can fill in many holes of PE with wehrmacht reinforcements. The units proposed in the "how to make americans cooler" and this thread are not gapfillers or faction breakers, just ideas for units which could lead to americans having some coolness factor type of units.

Also, there is no "illusion of inferiority", just a very clear voiced opinion that americans are less fun to play for a lot of players, a interesting slice of the voices being die-hard wehrmacht players answering to the question "why arent americans fun for you" in one form or incarnation. A quick forum search will find you these posts. If you have good alternatives to creating new units to make americans a more cool faction why dont you drum these up and help spark the discussion onto an alternative course? Is that too constructive for you to do?

[Bubz]

A point stays, removing bars from airbornes was a bad idea, I bet that that would be a partial solution to this problem. At least at making the boring airborne doctrine more appealing and giving incentives to play as americans (for once something different from infantry), as well as giving americans an enjoyable -rifles on their own aren't- platform to fight other infantry without necessarely outnumbering the enemy.

[Draken]

Just look at americans unit leaderboard and compare it with other unit leaderboards, even with reinforcemenets units it looks small.

AMPM you sound biased like shit tbh.

[AmPM]

Leaderboards have nothing to do with balance Draken, all they mean is some units are babied more.

Though I can tell that since people have similar records on Axis and Allies with both their accounts, that things are pretty balanced.

[Draken]

Leaderboards have nothing to do with balance Draken, all they mean is some units are babied more.

Though I can tell that since people have similar records on Axis and Allies with both their accounts, that things are pretty balanced.

I wasnt talking about vet, I was talking about NUMBER of units the ami unit list it shortes even with same units counted as diffrent like dropable atg, 6 pounder.

[AmPM]

Which again has nothing to do with Balance...

[acker]

Which again has nothing to do with Balance...

This thread has to do with Balance, AMPM? Did you even read Smokaz's posts?

Even with the current british implementation, they are not satisfactorily equipped when it comes to indirect fire, lockdown, artillery and tiebreakers although they are much better now compared to how they were when they first got added into EIRR. I have no problem with this as PE also turns into a support faction next to wehr - but like scrap says, there's no problems related to manning wehrmacht and PE player slots - the problems are related to having enough allies and particulary american players around, there seems to be a small but active british playerbase. So Im gonna be frank with this, I think wehrmacht and PE should get the short end of the attention stick until this playerbase imbalance is sorted out. I invite you to sob and troll about it, but I still think beefing up the attractiveness of americans and definitely brits secondarily is in the best interest of the mod, for the sake of PLAYING alone if nothing else.

Grinding is the same for everyone, no matter faction. What's your point? Nobody forces you into playing both sides, in fact the devs have made no statement in that direction. Parts of your post is just a misguided shriek of pain about PE gaps when you in fact can fill in many holes of PE with wehrmacht reinforcements. The units proposed in the "how to make americans cooler" and this thread are not gapfillers or faction breakers, just ideas for units which could lead to americans having some coolness factor type of units.

Also, there is no "illusion of inferiority", just a very clear voiced opinion that americans are less fun to play for a lot of players, a interesting slice of the voices being die-hard wehrmacht players answering to the question "why arent americans fun for you" in one form or incarnation. A quick forum search will find you these posts. If you have good alternatives to creating new units to make americans a more cool faction why dont you drum these up and help spark the discussion onto an alternative course? Is that too constructive for you to do?

[AmPM]

Acker, that's not a balance problem.

That's an "everyone has axis, few want to grind out a second company to play allies" problem.

Smokaz: Filling the gaps with Reinforcements can be done to add "Cool" units to Americans too, throw in Commandos, AB, Rangers into a doctrine that normally doesn't have them. As I stated, Americans are good generalized troops and vehicles, but people like Specialists. Double Schrek, Double LMG, RR AB, Rangers with only SMGs (when they were allowed), KCH, Stormies, Commandos, etc are or were all very popular choices.

I stated my reasons for playing only the companies I already had built, because building another one will suck and is boring. I am waiting for the RE doctrine to get some actual unlocks completed. I've played Allies a lot, the units are good, its just they are all the same.

Maybe instead of making new units, just allowing new upgrades would help. I had suggested at one time a "Vet Sgt" upgrade for Rifles, allowing them to Sprint and giving the leader a Thompson (Vet Sgt + BAR + Nade making a good assault unit for about the same price as any other assault unit with a Nade) without upping the DPS by a huge amount or making an entirely new squad type. Hell, the Sandbags on the .50cal upgrade might even be usable as a sort of Anti-Manpacked AT upgrade (lower Pen vs manpacked from the front) and so on.

If anything adding new flavor to old units is better than creating entirely new units.

[Tymathee]

t I still think beefing up the attractiveness of americans and definitely brits secondarily is in the best interest of the mod, for the sake of PLAYING alone if nothing else.

I personally agree with teh part about making it more attractive, without any OP'ness involved.

the reason I personally want to test a 4 man bar squad is because it is NOT op in the first place.  Start small and tweak up till it fits.

but as I said, its purely conceptual for testing atm.

Here's an idea Salan, I'm getting this from Ampm's post. instead of making a whole new unit, why not have a doc choice where you can purchase two more bars for your rifles? Atm, there's only two units with it. Maybe you take away the auto suppression you can get with only two. You can also somehow limit them like rangers are limited when they buy the smg upgrade from picking up any other weapons or make it only 2 slots (the carbines)

[DasNoob]

If anything adding new flavor to old units is better than creating entirely new units.

QFT

[Lt_Apollo]

AmPM you sound very conserative when it comes to EiRR, change is good we like change, new improvments are good.  1 new unit is not the end of the world. i am sory if you would rather play with the same currently boring american units but a signifigant portion of the community feels the americans are lacking in diversity and have no flavor. having 1 unit that can do the job is just not good gameplay that is why axis with its varity of more specalised units has always been more popular.

but the devs do need credit for giving the americans some intresting doctrine chocies to counteract this but still EiRR with americans usualy revolves around only a few units and stratagys.

[AmPM]

Let me count my different units....

PG....IHT...ATHT....MHT....Marder....Sw im

That is my company, right there.

As you can see, the number of different units isn't really important to what players perceive as diverse, its really all about the upgrades you can give to units.

Adding new units isn't what is needed, and if you really want some interesting units OMG is where they are. Adding a couple new upgrades is all well and good though.

The thing that makes Americans boring is the lack of specialized infantry (supposedly), more than likely its the lack of Assault class weapons available to normal troops (see all the units Americans have been asking for, 4 BAR squads, Thompson Armor Infantry, etc). The problem is, that adding 4 Thompsons to a 6 man squad, or putting in a 4 BAR squad goes against the design philosophy put forth by the Devs when they limited LMGs and Schreks to 1 per squad (Supposedly because "You shouldn't be able to field that many munitions on one basic unit, it makes them too powerful).

I like to have a tool for each job, as I am sure most people do, instead of a tool that does a few things ok, you want separate ones that do their job well.

So again, adding an Assault type (Leader gets SMG, add Sprint, can purchase BAR and Nade but no Sticky/Zook) style Rifle upgrades (buy the Vet Sgt, no longer able to get zook and sticky, gets nade and bars) adds new flavor to an old unit.

That would give you a support unit (just BARs), an AT unit (zook and/or sticky) and an Assault unit (Sgt, Bar, Nade) all available on one platform. It also prevents things from getting nuts by keeping their pop up at 5, and limits the firepower to pop ratio. You also have to use them intelligently (smoke barrage, sprint, pop suppression, throw nade, rape) to get the best use out of them, again making it more interesting to play.

Rifles at 190 + 45mp for Sgt + BAR + nade = 235mp, 110mu, pretty close to every other assault infantry, but with more tactical ability and SF. It can get close, it can skirt MGs, it can charge to throw nades, it can GTFO if a tank comes up. Its all good.

[scrapking]

That's an "everyone has axis, few want to grind out a second company to play allies" problem.

And that in itself is a problem - the first part of your statement more than the last.

Although I do agree with you that another way of looking at it is to focus on upgrades rather than reinventing new units.  That is a quite viable answer to this problem.

However, honestly, I disagree with you about calling it an "illusion of inferiority".  Basically, I really think it is simply not an illusion.  As you said, "every American unit is not the best at anything, except artillery".  Sure things are costed differently, but when you are comparing pop for pop, the ability to field a force during a critical moment, literally every comparable Wehr unit is a better option than every comparable American unit, with generally better upgrade options.

The thing is, it isn't a huge margin of difference, not enough to surpass skill as the real deciding factor, so we call it "balanced" because this small margin is accounted for through costs.  But given the choice, virtually every player would choose the Wehr equivalents.  A further problem is that in a few cases there are no true equivalents.  No schreck , no Panther, no Nebelwerfer, no KCH, no LMG, no MP40.  OK, so there is also no BAR, no sticky, and some of the previous things get mimicked through doctrines...

But that is kind of the point, we call the factions generally balanced, when really they aren't - there is an obvious difference between the two, and even if the difference is minor, it is perceivable - and people being people prefer the slight edge as opposed to not.  Hence Wehr over U.S. as a sort of obvious choice.  And some of the above differences cannot truly be accounted for with upgrades.

If a person is trying to decide between 2 of anything, and the things are relatively the same, its human nature to want the one which is even "slightly" better.  That is no illusion.