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[CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
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Topic: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance (Read 25092 times)
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LuAn
EIR Veteran
Posts: 572
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #40 on:
July 20, 2009, 05:40:21 am »
Quote from: Unkn0wn on July 20, 2009, 05:38:04 am
They're not really really slow, just slow. And it's very powerful if used correctly.
Perfect for dropping behind lines, then ambushing.
Ok, you convinced me
However it will be implemented, ill just hope for the best.
Edit: Oke after testing the there doesnt seem to be a big difference in movement speed on crawling and walking while camouflaged, however the behaviour of the crawling units and its camouflage seems a bit odd.
Why not use the same camouflage as stormtrooper?
«
Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 05:59:50 am by LuAn
»
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aka
UckY
Akranadas
Honoured Member
Posts: 6906
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #41 on:
July 20, 2009, 05:46:23 am »
Expect for the whole; glider coming in, the "oh noes; where could those commandos be" thing
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LeoPhone
Honoured Member
Posts: 0
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #42 on:
July 20, 2009, 06:21:24 am »
Quote from: Unkn0wn on July 20, 2009, 05:38:04 am
They're not really really slow, just slow. And it's very powerful if used correctly.
Perfect for dropping behind lines, then ambushing.
and the allied gets a micro unit again. CANT WE JUST GET A STRONG UNIT?
im sure those commandos will be spotted in no time, since theyre so slow, and everyboddy hears a ''stealthy no engine glider'' landing
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Akranadas
Honoured Member
Posts: 6906
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #43 on:
July 20, 2009, 06:27:37 am »
I think we should give the the British Scottish Infantry, they'll be like KCH but Carrying Brens that fire like HMGs.
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VictorTarget
EIR Veteran
Posts: 234
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #44 on:
July 20, 2009, 07:12:44 am »
Quote from: Akranadas on July 20, 2009, 06:27:37 am
I think we should give the the British Scottish Infantry, they'll be like KCH but Carrying Brens that fire like HMGs.
And skir- I mean....kilts.
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CrazyWR
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3616
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #45 on:
July 20, 2009, 10:45:49 am »
Quote from: LeoPhone on July 20, 2009, 06:21:24 am
Quote from: Unkn0wn on July 20, 2009, 05:38:04 am
They're not really really slow, just slow. And it's very powerful if used correctly.
Perfect for dropping behind lines, then ambushing.
and the allied gets a micro unit again. CANT WE JUST GET A STRONG UNIT?
im sure those commandos will be spotted in no time, since theyre so slow, and everyboddy hears a ''stealthy no engine glider'' landing
so you want a unit you dont have to micro, you can just click here and there and expect it to kill everything in its path?
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Quote from: Ununoctium on September 03, 2009, 07:45:25 am
1. New tactics? it's like JAWS, first one in the water dies
Quote from: jackmccrack on February 09, 2012, 12:47:54 pm
RCA-land where shells fall like raindrops and the Captain is an invincible god
Malevolence
Donator
Posts: 1871
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #46 on:
July 20, 2009, 10:50:42 am »
ONLY AXIS GET THOSE!
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Quote from: Akranadas
Vet has nothing to do with unit preformance.
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We are serious about enforcing this, and I am sure you all want to be able to have your balance thought considered by the development team with some biased, sensationalist coming into your thread and ruining it.
deadbolt
Probably Banned
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4410
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #47 on:
July 20, 2009, 12:57:55 pm »
Quote from: Malevolence on July 20, 2009, 10:50:42 am
ONLY AXIS GET THOSE!
+1
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DERDBERT
Quote from: jackmccrack on August 03, 2014, 01:58:51 pm
Like Jesus, Keeps died for us
He made a funny thread for bear, and got banned.
Now bear makes his own funny thread. It's unsurprisingly not funny.
Keeps died for our funny threads.
VictorTarget
EIR Veteran
Posts: 234
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #48 on:
July 20, 2009, 01:03:27 pm »
Quote from: deadbolt on July 20, 2009, 12:57:55 pm
Quote from: Malevolence on July 20, 2009, 10:50:42 am
ONLY AXIS GET THOSE!
+1
Then give me more shitty troops, damnit!
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Illegal_Carrot
Global Moderator
Posts: 1068
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #49 on:
July 20, 2009, 01:31:27 pm »
Quote from: Mysthalin on July 20, 2009, 03:05:21 am
Quote from: Illegal_Carrot on July 13, 2009, 08:50:46 pm
The StuH only fires about every 14 seconds, not 8.
Considering the AVRE's better damage, AoE, modifiers, etc, as well being on a much better platform, I feel the cost is justified.
Lol 14 seconds.
Try 8.5-9.5 seconds
AVRE can't even kill a pak in one shot, it does virtualy no damage to tanks, and it has TERRIBLE modifiers to units in heavy cover(so terrible to actualy MISS units with it's splash when the shell drops on the HEAD of the guy). Not to mention it will almost never hit a moving infantry squad. And the AoE modifiers are quite terrible as well.
Only things it's good against is units in houses and bunkers, and that's the only thing you use it for : a bunker/house buster.
8-7s reload time, 1.5s Ready Aim Time, 4s Post Firing Aim Time, and another 1.5s Moving Cooldown, if the StuH was moving while firing. That's anywhere from 12.5 to 15 seconds.
The AVRE will decrew a PaK in one shot easily, I've seen it done, and done it myself, many times before.
The AVRE does 125 damage to Axis tanks, and 250 to Axis light vehicles, with a 100% chance to penetrate. (No, you shouldn't use the AVRE as an AT weapon, but to say it does no damage is a lie)
The AVRE has no cover-related damage modifiers.
The AVRE's AoE modifiers are fine.
Looks like you're wrong about everything.
Better luck next time.
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LuAn
EIR Veteran
Posts: 572
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #50 on:
July 20, 2009, 01:45:34 pm »
Ok, so its MP/Mun/Fuel costs are justified.
What about its pp cost?
What about the Cooldown?
Avre: T2
StuH: T1
Does Improved Barrels and Heat Rounds affect the StuH?
Avre has 135sec cooldown at Vet0.
Theres a T3 Unlock that lowers the CD by 25% (and also gives a 20% health buff)
Wehrmacht Defensive has a T2 Unlock that lowers the CD for Nebel AND Stuka by 25%.
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Illegal_Carrot
Global Moderator
Posts: 1068
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #51 on:
July 20, 2009, 01:56:09 pm »
AVREs have 1/1 Availability, with only a 3PP cost for the In Supply, so there's not much PP cost involved with fielding one.
And while Improved Barrels and HEAT Rounds do affect the StuH, it's hardly noticeable or effective on it.
The AVRE has -60 seconds cool down at vet 3 (reducing it to 75s), though I wish it had only a base 105s cooldown, but only -30s at vet 3 (so it'd be better for vet 0/1 AVREs, but be the same at vet 3).
«
Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 06:33:23 pm by Illegal_Carrot
»
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LuAn
EIR Veteran
Posts: 572
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #52 on:
July 20, 2009, 02:01:12 pm »
Quote from: Illegal_Carrot on July 20, 2009, 01:56:09 pm
AVREs have 1/1 Availability, with only a 3PP cost for the In Supply, so there's not PP cost involved with fielding one.
And while Improved Barrels and HEAT Rounds do affect the StuH, it's hardly noticeable or effective on it.
The AVRE has -60 seconds cool down at vet 3 (reducing it to 75s), though I wish it had only a base 105s cooldown, but only -30s at vet 3 (so it'd be better for vet 0/1 AVREs, but be the same at vet 3).
Well it still affects them, Avre doesnt receive any offensive buffs or so.
Avre also is a T2 unlock.
By PP cost i mean the 50pp Unlock.
StuH only cost 25PP Unlock.
This minor change would already help alot in my opinion.
«
Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 02:03:03 pm by LuAn
»
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LuAn
EIR Veteran
Posts: 572
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #53 on:
July 22, 2009, 12:53:01 pm »
One new thing i came across:
Unit Unlocks:
Tiers:
T1:
T2:
T3:
T4:
Americans:
105mm Howitzer
Airbourne 57mm
American Officer
Calliope
Pershing
Airborne Riflemen
None
British:
Commando Jeep
Commando Weapon Teams
25Pder
Tetrach
Avre
Churchill MK6
Priest
Commando Sniper
Churchill Crocodile
Ambush Commandos
Wehrmacht:
Stuh
Officer
Flak88
Tiger
King Tiger
Propaganda Officer
none
Panzerelite:
Wirbelwind
Flak88/Flakvierling
Hummel
Assault Flammen Grenadiers
Jadgpanther
none
The one thing that kinda sticks out of this entire table:
Ambush Commandos(320MP 135Mun) being T4
in comparison to Airborne Riflemen and Assault Flamen Grenadiers being T3.
Why are Ambush Commados a T4 Unlock?
A few other questions:
Look at the Tetrach, Avre, Stuh and Wirbelwind, what are the reasons for their different doctrine unlock levels.
If you look at the Pershing, Churchill Croc, Tiger, King Tiger, Jadgpanther. Can you consider all of them being a worthy T3 unlock or are there some balance issues?
Ill add some questions if i find some.
So anybody please feel free to post answers to those questions
«
Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 02:10:44 pm by LuAn
»
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Malevolence
Donator
Posts: 1871
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #54 on:
July 22, 2009, 01:05:07 pm »
Because it's five commandos with three PIATs?
Logged
Illegal_Carrot
Global Moderator
Posts: 1068
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #55 on:
July 22, 2009, 01:18:54 pm »
If the Assault Flammen grens are a T3, I don't see why Ambush Commando shouldn't be a T3, aswell, maybe with a debuff from how they are currently.
Quote
# If you look at the Pershing, Churchill Croc, Tiger, King Tiger, Jadgpanther. Can you consider all of them being a worthy T3 unlock or are there some balance issues?
They're all good as T3s, as they're all fairly powerful, but some tweaks could be put int place to make things a bit more balanced.
The Tiger could use some better vet, perhaps .75 moving accuracy (from .5) at vet 2, or the vehicle moving ability at vet 3? Just something to make it a bit more useful.
KT seems a bit OP as it is, currently. Not the KT itself, necessarily, but the fact that it can cause so much damage, repair, and do it all over again. Other than repair, it's fine; the thing is damn expensive.
Jagd just sucks, so some serious buffing needs to take place for it to be viable.
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Mysthalin
Tired King of Stats
Posts: 9028
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #56 on:
July 22, 2009, 01:23:29 pm »
Quote from: Illegal_Carrot on July 20, 2009, 01:31:27 pm
Quote from: Mysthalin on July 20, 2009, 03:05:21 am
Quote from: Illegal_Carrot on July 13, 2009, 08:50:46 pm
The StuH only fires about every 14 seconds, not 8.
Considering the AVRE's better damage, AoE, modifiers, etc, as well being on a much better platform, I feel the cost is justified.
Lol 14 seconds.
Try 8.5-9.5 seconds
AVRE can't even kill a pak in one shot, it does virtualy no damage to tanks, and it has TERRIBLE modifiers to units in heavy cover(so terrible to actualy MISS units with it's splash when the shell drops on the HEAD of the guy). Not to mention it will almost never hit a moving infantry squad. And the AoE modifiers are quite terrible as well.
Only things it's good against is units in houses and bunkers, and that's the only thing you use it for : a bunker/house buster.
8-7s reload time, 1.5s Ready Aim Time, 4s Post Firing Aim Time, and another 1.5s Moving Cooldown, if the StuH was moving while firing. That's anywhere from 12.5 to 15 seconds.
The AVRE will decrew a PaK in one shot easily, I've seen it done, and done it myself, many times before.
The AVRE does 125 damage to Axis tanks, and 250 to Axis light vehicles, with a 100% chance to penetrate. (No, you shouldn't use the AVRE as an AT weapon, but to say it does no damage is a lie)
The AVRE has no cover-related damage modifiers.
The AVRE's AoE modifiers are fine.
Looks like you're wrong about everything.
Better luck next time.
Too bad Post Firing Aim Time is the time the gun keeps aiming at the same angle it was just before the shot(in the event of ahnialating the enemy unit, or it going out of range after the shot), not actually a time that adds to the reload... You don't believe me, test it yourself.
To quote CoH-stats :
Quote
Post Firing Aim Time
The duration which weapon stays in aimed animation after battle, for tanks its the duration which the turret locks after battle.
1. Yes, you CAN decrew a pak with one shot from an AVRE. Too bad to do it you have to hit behind the pak, otherwise the shot is absorbed entirely by the shield. Too bad that happens 50 percent of the time.
2. Anyone with half a brain will dodge an AVRE shot with a mobile tank, and ESPECIALY a vehicle. There is no chance in the world you'll hit a puma, unless it's immobilised and at the closest possible range.
3. Damage modifiers don't matter with the ever so fun cover-related accuracy modifiers. I know what CoH-stats claim, and I know it's wrong. It claims it has 1 accuracy and damage modifiers against units in houses as well(same as in the open) - we all know the AVRE is much more effective vs units in houses(clearing entire churches in one shot) than it is against units in the open.
4. You just state something and say you proved me wrong? And do it as an ad-hominem? Good job properly and logicaly proving your point.
On a side note - moving cooldown is also 0. It's a modifier, not a time.
«
Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 01:26:29 pm by Mysthalin
»
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LuAn
EIR Veteran
Posts: 572
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #57 on:
July 22, 2009, 01:32:41 pm »
@Mysthalin:
If you post in my thread could you please stick to the matter at hand and dont dig up long forgotten things?
Also leave the insultive/attacking part out of it.
Please try to anwser my questions and make your point, im interested in your opinion and not your discussion/disagreement with any other person
Quote from: Illegal_Carrot on July 22, 2009, 01:18:54 pm
If the Assault Flammen grens are a T3, I don't see why Ambush Commando shouldn't be a T3, aswell, maybe with a debuff from how they are currently.
Quote
# If you look at the Pershing, Churchill Croc, Tiger, King Tiger, Jadgpanther. Can you consider all of them being a worthy T3 unlock or are there some balance issues?
They're all good as T3s, as they're all fairly powerful, but some tweaks could be put int place to make things a bit more balanced.
The Tiger could use some better vet, perhaps .75 moving accuracy (from .5) at vet 2, or the vehicle moving ability at vet 3? Just something to make it a bit more useful.
KT seems a bit OP as it is, currently. Not the KT itself, necessarily, but the fact that it can cause so much damage, repair, and do it all over again. Other than repair, it's fine; the thing is damn expensive.
Jagd just sucks, so some serious buffing needs to take place for it to be viable.
Mhm Repair on KT currently costs 80Mun and German Steel also affects the KT.
How about this:
Move Ambush Squads to T3 including a appropiate change replacing RAF Overhead. A second artillery besides Decoy Artillery isnt really needed in my opinion.
(But i dont really know that to change for the Ambush Squad(320MP 135Mun 2/1Supply) they currently cost the same as a Commando Squad and have 1 man less (Piat Commandos = 180MP 100Mun 3/2Supply)
The Commando Doctrine T3 Lineup would then look like that:
Decoy Artillery
Ambush Commandos
Glider Triage Center
Radio Triangulation
Commando Sniper
Any thoughts on this?
(In my opinion this set of T3 does fit quite well, i can only pick two and they are all quite equal)
«
Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 02:17:05 pm by LuAn
»
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Malevolence
Donator
Posts: 1871
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #58 on:
July 22, 2009, 03:41:28 pm »
Making mando ambush squad more expensive (in line with mando piats roughly) but moving them to tier 3 in place of the triage center glider would seem to be more in line with the commando doctrine.
Then give 'em another thing as a t4, and a CCS to buy if they don't already have one.
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AmPM
Community Mapper
Posts: 7978
Re: [CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance
«
Reply #59 on:
July 22, 2009, 03:46:53 pm »
Mysthalin, its really easy to decrew a pak with an AVRE about 80% of the time, just aim right behind it...
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