[CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance

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[LuAn]

They're not really really slow, just slow. And it's very powerful if used correctly.
Perfect for dropping behind lines, then ambushing.

Ok, you convinced me

However it will be implemented, ill just hope for the best.

Edit: Oke after testing the there doesnt seem to be a big difference in movement speed on crawling and walking while camouflaged, however the behaviour of the crawling units and its camouflage seems a bit odd.
Why not use the same camouflage as stormtrooper?

[Akranadas]

Expect for the whole; glider coming in, the "oh noes; where could those commandos be" thing

[LeoPhone]

They're not really really slow, just slow. And it's very powerful if used correctly.
Perfect for dropping behind lines, then ambushing.

and the allied gets a micro unit again. CANT WE JUST GET A STRONG UNIT?
im sure those commandos will be spotted in no time, since theyre so slow, and everyboddy hears a ''stealthy no engine glider'' landing

[Akranadas]

I think we should give the the British Scottish Infantry, they'll be like KCH but Carrying Brens that fire like HMGs.

[VictorTarget]

I think we should give the the British Scottish Infantry, they'll be like KCH but Carrying Brens that fire like HMGs.

And skir- I mean....kilts.

[CrazyWR]

They're not really really slow, just slow. And it's very powerful if used correctly.
Perfect for dropping behind lines, then ambushing.

and the allied gets a micro unit again. CANT WE JUST GET A STRONG UNIT?
im sure those commandos will be spotted in no time, since theyre so slow, and everyboddy hears a ''stealthy no engine glider'' landing

so you want a unit you dont have to micro, you can just click here and there and expect it to kill everything in its path?

[Malevolence]

ONLY AXIS GET THOSE! 

[deadbolt]

ONLY AXIS GET THOSE! 

+1

[VictorTarget]

ONLY AXIS GET THOSE! 

+1

Then give me more shitty troops, damnit!

[Illegal_Carrot]

The StuH only fires about every 14 seconds, not 8.
Considering the AVRE's better damage, AoE, modifiers, etc, as well being on a much better platform, I feel the cost is justified.

Lol 14 seconds.

Try 8.5-9.5 seconds

AVRE can't even kill a pak in one shot, it does virtualy no damage to tanks, and it has TERRIBLE modifiers to units in heavy cover(so terrible to actualy MISS units with it's splash when the shell drops on the HEAD of the guy). Not to mention it will almost never hit a moving infantry squad. And the AoE modifiers are quite terrible as well.

Only things it's good against is units in houses and bunkers, and that's the only thing you use it for : a bunker/house buster.

8-7s reload time, 1.5s Ready Aim Time, 4s Post Firing Aim Time, and another 1.5s Moving Cooldown, if the StuH was moving while firing. That's anywhere from 12.5 to 15 seconds.

The AVRE will decrew a PaK in one shot easily, I've seen it done, and done it myself, many times before.
The AVRE does 125 damage to Axis tanks, and 250 to Axis light vehicles, with a 100% chance to penetrate. (No, you shouldn't use the AVRE as an AT weapon, but to say it does no damage is a lie)
The AVRE has no cover-related damage modifiers.
The AVRE's AoE modifiers are fine.

Looks like you're wrong about everything. Better luck next time.

[LuAn]

Ok, so its MP/Mun/Fuel costs are justified.

What about its pp cost?
What about the Cooldown?

Avre: T2
StuH: T1

Does Improved Barrels and Heat Rounds affect the StuH?

Avre has 135sec cooldown at Vet0.

Theres a T3 Unlock that lowers the CD by 25% (and also gives a 20% health buff)

Wehrmacht Defensive has a T2 Unlock that lowers the CD for Nebel AND Stuka by 25%.

[Illegal_Carrot]

AVREs have 1/1 Availability, with only a 3PP cost for the In Supply, so there's not much PP cost involved with fielding one.
And while Improved Barrels and HEAT Rounds do affect the StuH, it's hardly noticeable or effective on it.
The AVRE has -60 seconds cool down at vet 3 (reducing it to 75s), though I wish it had only a base 105s cooldown, but only -30s at vet 3 (so it'd be better for vet 0/1 AVREs, but be the same at vet 3).

[LuAn]

AVREs have 1/1 Availability, with only a 3PP cost for the In Supply, so there's not PP cost involved with fielding one.
And while Improved Barrels and HEAT Rounds do affect the StuH, it's hardly noticeable or effective on it.
The AVRE has -60 seconds cool down at vet 3 (reducing it to 75s), though I wish it had only a base 105s cooldown, but only -30s at vet 3 (so it'd be better for vet 0/1 AVREs, but be the same at vet 3).

Well it still affects them, Avre doesnt receive any offensive buffs or so.

Avre also is a T2 unlock.

By PP cost i mean the 50pp Unlock.
StuH only cost 25PP Unlock.

This minor change would already help alot in my opinion.

[LuAn]

One new thing i came across:

Unit Unlocks:

Tiers: T1: T2: T3: T4:

Americans:                     105mm Howitzer Airbourne 57mm American Officer Calliope Pershing Airborne Riflemen None

British:       Commando Jeep Commando Weapon Teams 25Pder Tetrach Avre Churchill MK6 Priest Commando Sniper Churchill Crocodile Ambush Commandos

Wehrmacht:       Stuh Officer Flak88 Tiger King Tiger Propaganda Officer none

Panzerelite:       Wirbelwind Flak88/Flakvierling Hummel Assault Flammen Grenadiers Jadgpanther none

The one thing that kinda sticks out of this entire table:
Ambush Commandos(320MP 135Mun) being T4 in comparison to Airborne Riflemen and Assault Flamen Grenadiers being T3.
Why are Ambush Commados a T4 Unlock?

A few other questions:

• Look at the Tetrach, Avre, Stuh and Wirbelwind, what are the reasons for their different doctrine unlock levels.
• If you look at the Pershing, Churchill Croc, Tiger, King Tiger, Jadgpanther. Can you consider all of them being a worthy T3 unlock or are there some balance issues?

Ill add some questions if i find some.

So anybody please feel free to post answers to those questions

[Malevolence]

Because it's five commandos with three PIATs?

[Illegal_Carrot]

If the Assault Flammen grens are a T3, I don't see why Ambush Commando shouldn't be a T3, aswell, maybe with a debuff from how they are currently.

# If you look at the Pershing, Churchill Croc, Tiger, King Tiger, Jadgpanther. Can you consider all of them being a worthy T3 unlock or are there some balance issues?

They're all good as T3s, as they're all fairly powerful, but some tweaks could be put int place to make things a bit more balanced.
The Tiger could use some better vet, perhaps .75 moving accuracy (from .5) at vet 2, or the vehicle moving ability at vet 3? Just something to make it a bit more useful.
KT seems a bit OP as it is, currently. Not the KT itself, necessarily, but the fact that it can cause so much damage, repair, and do it all over again. Other than repair, it's fine; the thing is damn expensive.
Jagd just sucks, so some serious buffing needs to take place for it to be viable.

[Mysthalin]

The StuH only fires about every 14 seconds, not 8.
Considering the AVRE's better damage, AoE, modifiers, etc, as well being on a much better platform, I feel the cost is justified.

Lol 14 seconds.

Try 8.5-9.5 seconds

AVRE can't even kill a pak in one shot, it does virtualy no damage to tanks, and it has TERRIBLE modifiers to units in heavy cover(so terrible to actualy MISS units with it's splash when the shell drops on the HEAD of the guy). Not to mention it will almost never hit a moving infantry squad. And the AoE modifiers are quite terrible as well.

Only things it's good against is units in houses and bunkers, and that's the only thing you use it for : a bunker/house buster.

8-7s reload time, 1.5s Ready Aim Time, 4s Post Firing Aim Time, and another 1.5s Moving Cooldown, if the StuH was moving while firing. That's anywhere from 12.5 to 15 seconds.

The AVRE will decrew a PaK in one shot easily, I've seen it done, and done it myself, many times before.
The AVRE does 125 damage to Axis tanks, and 250 to Axis light vehicles, with a 100% chance to penetrate. (No, you shouldn't use the AVRE as an AT weapon, but to say it does no damage is a lie)
The AVRE has no cover-related damage modifiers.
The AVRE's AoE modifiers are fine.

Looks like you're wrong about everything. Better luck next time.

Too bad Post Firing Aim Time is the time the gun keeps aiming at the same angle it was just before the shot(in the event of ahnialating the enemy unit, or it going out of range after the shot), not actually a time that adds to the reload... You don't believe me, test it yourself.

To quote CoH-stats :

Post Firing Aim Time
The duration which weapon stays in aimed animation after battle, for tanks its the duration which the turret locks after battle.

1. Yes, you CAN decrew a pak with one shot from an AVRE. Too bad to do it you have to hit behind the pak, otherwise the shot is absorbed entirely by the shield. Too bad that happens 50 percent of the time.

2. Anyone with half a brain will dodge an AVRE shot with a mobile tank, and ESPECIALY a vehicle. There is no chance in the world you'll hit a puma, unless it's immobilised and at the closest possible range.

3. Damage modifiers don't matter with the ever so fun cover-related accuracy modifiers. I know what CoH-stats claim, and I know it's wrong. It claims it has 1 accuracy and damage modifiers against units in houses as well(same as in the open) - we all know the AVRE is much more effective vs units in houses(clearing entire churches in one shot) than it is against units in the open.

4. You just state something and say you proved me wrong? And do it as an ad-hominem? Good job properly and logicaly proving your point.

On a side note - moving cooldown is also 0. It's a modifier, not a time.

[LuAn]

@Mysthalin:
If you post in my thread could you please stick to the matter at hand and dont dig up long forgotten things?
Also leave the insultive/attacking part out of it.
Please try to anwser my questions and make your point, im interested in your opinion and not your discussion/disagreement with any other person  

If the Assault Flammen grens are a T3, I don't see why Ambush Commando shouldn't be a T3, aswell, maybe with a debuff from how they are currently.

# If you look at the Pershing, Churchill Croc, Tiger, King Tiger, Jadgpanther. Can you consider all of them being a worthy T3 unlock or are there some balance issues?

They're all good as T3s, as they're all fairly powerful, but some tweaks could be put int place to make things a bit more balanced.
The Tiger could use some better vet, perhaps .75 moving accuracy (from .5) at vet 2, or the vehicle moving ability at vet 3? Just something to make it a bit more useful.
KT seems a bit OP as it is, currently. Not the KT itself, necessarily, but the fact that it can cause so much damage, repair, and do it all over again. Other than repair, it's fine; the thing is damn expensive.
Jagd just sucks, so some serious buffing needs to take place for it to be viable.

Mhm Repair on KT currently costs 80Mun and German Steel also affects the KT.


How about this:
Move Ambush Squads to T3 including a appropiate change replacing RAF Overhead. A second artillery besides Decoy Artillery isnt really needed in my opinion.
(But i dont really know that to change for the Ambush Squad(320MP 135Mun 2/1Supply) they currently cost the same as a Commando Squad and have 1 man less (Piat Commandos = 180MP 100Mun 3/2Supply)

The Commando Doctrine T3 Lineup would then look like that:

• Decoy Artillery
• Ambush Commandos
• Glider Triage Center
• Radio Triangulation
• Commando Sniper

Any thoughts on this?
(In my opinion this set of T3 does fit quite well, i can only pick two and they are all quite equal)

[Malevolence]

Making mando ambush squad more expensive (in line with mando piats roughly) but moving them to tier 3 in place of the triage center glider would seem to be more in line with the commando doctrine.

Then give 'em another thing as a t4, and a CCS to buy if they don't already have one.

[AmPM]

Mysthalin, its really easy to decrew a pak with an AVRE about 80% of the time, just aim right behind it...