[Wehr] Grenadier grenade

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[Mysthalin]

My point is that the WHOLE of the wehrmacht faction is OP. There is a reason why most good players that play both sides call it the baby faction - it is really much more powerful and versatile than any of the allied factions, or PE have ever been.
Whenever anything starts beating wehrmacht players consistently, they start screaming for a nerf, and whenever they notice anything underperforming compared to the rest of their very, very powerful units and upgrades, they scream buff.
The grenadier nade has been fine through many, many itterations of EiR - it had been useful even when it cost 40 munitions, and you could get an LMG for just 2 nades. Now you can buy 3 nades for one LMG, and you're still not satisfied - the grenadier grenade is more than awesome - it has a great throw range, is on a very capable platform, and is used against units of lower HP per man.

You dont build the T2 to get Grenades, you get them for FREE because they are crap while the amis build their barracks aswell

Other than using medic bunkers, there is no way to attain the grenadier grenade before getting the Kriegs Barracks. And usualy, before you get your first zombie grenadier squad, you'll have built the kriegs barracks on their own.

The only reason why the pineapple costs fuel to attain is so that wehrmacht MGs are not hard-countered 1 minute into the game, and not because the "grenadier nade fails so hard".

Honestly elitegren, play anything but wehrmacht once, then put forward your views, rather than do what you are doing right now.

[EliteGren]

I mainly play PE, whats your point?
Rather sad how you havent noticed that I was No 1 on the PE leaderboard for quite some time.

And yes MGs are countered the minute they are fielded, its called flanking. If you need nades to counter Mg42s there is nothing more to say than l2p.

If you really wanna back up your point about gren grenades being awesome - show us some replays.

[Smokaz]

Honestly, the wehr is already OP in it's current itteration, and the post is just another piece of proof of the wehr player's not being able to handle even one of their units/upgrades being at least slightly underpar when compared to the rest of their horribly OP galore. Nerf the LMG42, then they'll apreciate the grenade, is my suggestion.

The grenadier nade costs less, the grenadier has access to better upgrades, the grenadier is much more rape on it's own than a rifle squad - it has way more chance to get it's nades off than a rifle squad does. And no - saying that the nuclear pineapple in vCoH is more powerful because you have to tech up to it is wrong - as you have to get to T2 and build a kriegs barracks to get the StiehlHandGranate.

(Starts off post like mysthalin with flame towards something unrelated to the subject)

Have you actually played vcoh? I am going to assume, yes, but did you check out americans? Your post is just another proof that most EIRR players have fuck all knowledge of what the original balance fundament for the wehr and the american grenade was in vcoh. 

Post can now continue!

In vcoh where the current combat stats of the wehr and the american grenade is from, the american grenade is a separate teching cost for the barracks costing massive fuel early game delaying the supply yard which is the american teching prerequisite for its t3 and t4. The american nade is much better because it costs more and because other than granting the grenade, it has no teching value. T2 however for wehr is a step along their teching three and their grenadier grenades does in no way affect their ability to tech. Its part of their fuel cheap T2.

You can't possibly mean that the kriegbarracks is anything even remotely similar to the grenade upgrade just because it produces the troop that gets free access to the wehr grenade? What about the pak, mortar and the wehr ht's part of this price then? Thank you, come again.

"but the lmg is good, so nade doesnt have to"

"Oh ok, but the thompson/BAR is so good, so why does the pineapple need to be good too? lololol "

Completely unrelated, if you want to argue the LMG go make a thread about it.

Heres the core of the question(s):

Does it cost anything special to field grenadiers or rifles? Is there any cost or doctrinal ability required to get grenades for grenadiers and rifles? No, but you can get a extra grenade with terror or blitz.

Is the cost-power relation here balanced? No its not. I know the wehrmacht nade has slightly longer range but it also has inferior scatter. If we then look at cost and damage..

Pineapple: 60 dmg / 30 munitions
Gren nade: 40 dmg / 25 munitions

So basically, wehrmacht gets a noticeable amount less "molesting for their marks" than the americans. If the wehrmacht price isnt changed, the wehr grenade should go up to 50 damage to make it fair. If you look at these humble beggar numbers you'll see that 50 dmg would give wehr the same damage-for-munitions ratio as americans.

And here's the interesting part

Just this tiny buff to the wehrmacht grenade to make it cost-effective, would mean tons to wehrmacht players. They could get more nades, play more fluidly and start making flanks with grenaders+flame pios more often. They could use grenadiers more aggressively instead of the old mindset of popping medikit and holding off the horde of rifles sitting in gren cover with double lmgs. Even you as deranged in your views you seem to be sometimes, must find this idea interesting, Mysthalin.

Btw, "it was good before" is no argument either

[Unkn0wn]

I wouldn't expect us to buff it statwise any time soon although in the long run a further price decrease to 20 Mun could definitely be considered.

[Bubz]

The pineapple thrown in grenadiers & stormies face sometimes will fail to kill too, gren nade is less damage for weaker squads, stop asking to buff wehrmacht to counter brits, because you'll make it harder for usa. Making more damage would make rifles even more useless, bam nade in the face, kaboom no more rifles.
Your problem is with brits that are tougher than the current werhmacht or pe, you have to deal with stronger squads than those you have, basically what the u.s. faction has to do always.

Fix medikits, then buff nades, if you want to use skill to play wehr. otherwise is just another raping button to the nazis.

[Malevolence]

Well, in keeping with the "do not change stats when unnecessary", I would say reducing price slightly on gren nade would be good.

In retail you get them for free for a reason - the range is nice, but it does not counteract the fact that the pineapple is a nuclear suitcase bomb.

[Mysthalin]

*loads of axis bias gibberish*

Pineapple: 60 dmg / 30 munitions
Gren nade: 40 dmg / 25 munitions

buff wehr nade to 50 dmg

This particular part proves your biasedness more than anything - you know as well as I do that the american rifleman has 55 health. 50 damage would litelarly mean a grenade can instantly destroy a rifleman squad.

The pineapple does more damage, but it deals it versus targets of more health. Sure, the pzgrenadier health doesn't let them survive the pine-apple, and I'm pretty OK with lowering the damage of the pineapple vs soldier armour, but not buff the grenadier nade to let it one-shot riflemen.

Whenever american players ask for something to be put into equality of wehrmacht, they get this :
"Go make your own mod with mirror balance and watch how fun it is"
I am going to use the exact same(however flawed) statement right now. Go make your own mod with mirror balance and watch how fun it is.

Have you actually played vcoh? I am going to assume, yes, but did you check out americans? Your post is just another proof that most EIRR players have fuck all knowledge of what the original balance fundament for the wehr and the american grenade was in vcoh. 

Yes, actualy, I have a lot, and I played both sides consistently for nearly 2 years before I joined EiR, and I hadn't dropped the habit of playing the occasional automatch even after then.

other than granting the grenade, it has no teching value

It gives exp gain buffs to rifles. Ame vet >>>>> wehr vet in vCoH. KKthxbie.

And yes MGs are countered the minute they are fielded, its called flanking

Good luck flanking an HMG in a building, of which in vCoH automatch maps there's plenty of. Not to mention that the enemy can get a volks squad on top of his HMG for 2 rifleman squads to stop your flank even in open fields.

They could use grenadiers more aggressively instead of the old mindset of popping medikit and holding off the horde of rifles sitting in gren cover with double lmgs

1. The grenadier is more than capable of doing so already.

2. I heard the wehrmacht has specialised assault troops such as the KCH/assault volks/stormtroopers already, but I of course may very well be wrong, and these units are merely myths.

[Killer344]

*loads of axis bias gibberish*

Pineapple: 60 dmg / 30 munitions
Gren nade: 40 dmg / 25 munitions

buff wehr nade to 50 dmg

This particular part proves your biasedness more than anything - you know as well as I do that the american rifleman has 55 health. 50 damage would litelarly mean a grenade can instantly destroy a rifleman squad.

Roflmao, that means you haven't used a gren nade ever.

[Mysthalin]

How does me stating something that is essentialy a stats-based theorycraft over a theoretical change that smokaz proposed prove me not ever using the grenadier grenade? I know that it can't gib rifleman squads right now, and it would be better if it were kept that way.

[Smokaz]

Mysthalin and Bibz, in this thread you guys come off as having stared yourself blind on the problem of the previous wehrmacht dominance, they have received a lot of nerfs lately yet you still cling to a non-constructive view of wehrmacht as a noob faction whom players are to be ridiculed or demeaned. This is not helping to foster a clean, organized debate over balance.

This particular part proves your biasedness more than anything - you know as well as I do that the american rifleman has 55 health. 50 damage would litelarly mean a grenade can instantly destroy a rifleman squad.

The "debate technique" of labeling me a wehrmacht biased fanboy to discredit my points is beneath contempt. It's so mindbogglingly retarded to label me a fanboy of any sort running equally played and sucessfull companies of both wehrmacht, americans and PE (deleted brit) when I have the most games played on my american company. I do enjoy seeing you make a clown out of yourself by labeling ME a wehrmacht fanboy when everyone scuttles away like sheep from my american account when I come online and I am routinely mentoring american players etc. But do go on, this actually has a discrediting effect when a post goes against all observed facts.

Whenever american players ask for something to be put into equality of wehrmacht, they get this :
"Go make your own mod with mirror balance and watch how fun it is"
I am going to use the exact same(however flawed) statement right now. Go make your own mod with mirror balance and watch how fun it is.

What's the point of using a flawed argument because it is flawed, other than for the purpose of some vain internet justice superhero? Im sorry that someone used a flawed argument against you, and happy that you observed it, but it has nothing to with the topic at hand.

It gives exp gain buffs to rifles. Ame vet >>>>> wehr vet in vCoH. KKthxbie.

As for the xp buff, it is now solely tied to the supply yard upgrades but I guess you didn't pick that up in your most recent "occasional" game.

I'm pretty OK with lowering the damage of the pineapple vs soldier armour

Althought its a lot of foam and drool in your posts and the routine penis swinging, you have one good idea. The grenadier nade doesnt need to be flat out buffed overall, it can be added a modifer to it to allow for say 50 dmg to tommies in the radius where it would normally do 40.

Mind, I do feel very for rifles if they would get 50 dmg nades thrown at them, but then again if you had Done Me the Great Honor Of Reading The Original Post Which Is Supposed To Set The Basis For The Following Discussion In The Thread You Might Have Noticed This:

I think the grenadier nade should either go down to 15 munitions, or receive a medium buff against tommy armor type (like 25% more damage) and a slight increase against elite armor rangers/airborne (like 15%). Right now you feel hustled, swindled and left with your pants down if you buy grenadier nades.

This and the rest of the original post's premise is all based on the grenadier nade's performance against Tommy and elite armor, not rifle armor. Looking up the stats I found that the wehrmacht nade already has a modifier against elite armor so its probably not neccessary to pursue that further.

[VictorTarget]

Having recently built a wehr company that uses grenades, I find that they're best used....in the exact same manner I use nuclear pineapples.  They're most effective in pairs, and while this will almost never destroy a squad, it's enough to get you superiority in the engagement.  That works for the wehr grenade as well.  However, the lower amount of damage is slightly noticeable (I'm more likely to clear an MG from a house with two ami grenades than with two wehr grenades, but both can do it) and I think a slight price reduction is probably the best idea. 

I'm not sure about upping the damage against tommies, as those troops are built to require a different counter, and are expected to be at least a soft counter to grenadiers and other non-elite infantry.  A tommie squad with a bren is generally a hard counter to volks and PGrens, while grens with an LMG can give them a run for their money.  But I think that grenades are not a counter to tommies, and shouldn't be balanced for it. If anything against the brits, I'd say give it a damage buff against units in trenches.  That seems most appropriate to me.

I prefer to face tommies with a hard counter like a P4, though.  It seems....mildly more efficient.

[EliteGren]

A price reduction to 20 would be enough already.

[Bubz]

Well, smokaz still the lamest things about wehrmacht haven't yet been fix'd, while it has received shitloads of useless changes.

[Smokaz]

I don't understand quite what you mean, Victor. Are you saying british infantry should not be suceptible to grenades?

And yes a price reduction to 20 would equal it out, and a modifier to 1.25 against tommy armor should also be considered.

[Bubz]

The price reduction looks fair to me.

[VictorTarget]

I don't understand quite what you mean, Victor. Are you saying british infantry should not be suceptible to grenades?

And yes a price reduction to 20 would equal it out, and a modifier to 1.25 against tommy armor should also be considered.

No, I'm not saying that british infantry should not be susceptible to grenades.  I'm saying that they should not be made any more susceptible than they are now.  They're particularly vulnerable to flames, whereas the american infantry are not.  I believe that those two units require different counters, much like the difference between grens and Pgrens.

But in short, I really just said don't buff the grenade against tommies, but allow for a minor price reduction.

[gamesguy2]

I don't understand quite what you mean, Victor. Are you saying british infantry should not be suceptible to grenades?

And yes a price reduction to 20 would equal it out, and a modifier to 1.25 against tommy armor should also be considered.

No, I'm not saying that british infantry should not be susceptible to grenades.  I'm saying that they should not be made any more susceptible than they are now.  They're particularly vulnerable to flames, whereas the american infantry are not.  I believe that those two units require different counters, much like the difference between grens and Pgrens.

But in short, I really just said don't buff the grenade against tommies, but allow for a minor price reduction.

British infantry are not particularly vulnerable to flames.

Flames do the same damage to all armor types(more to elite and heroic, but Brits don't have that).   Brits also have 65hp 5 men squads, which is a big improvement on 55hp 6 men squads.

Commandos are the most resillient infantry in the game towards flamers for example, on par with airborne.

[Bubz]

I see a problems with brits rather than with grennades