Defensive Doctrine Revisions

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[Illegal_Carrot]

A while back, I posted a thread concerning the sad state of the Defensive doctrine, and just why I thought so many of its unlocks were not up to par. The consensus was that Defensive was generally the worst Wehr doctrine available, and that a large portion of its unlocks were simply terrible. I have now gone through the current Defensive doctrine, and made the changes I feel appropriate. I've consulted many other players while creating the revision, done a bit of research, and have gotten all positive comments on the final product.
Here it is, the things I have changed will be underlined.

Doctrine Unlock
1)   Officer
2)   “Walking” Stuka Halftrack

Tier 1
1) Basic Fortifications.........MG/Bunkers cost 0 Pop, angle and range increased to that of MG42
2) Advanced Warning.........All units gain 10% sight
3) Flak AA/AT....................Flak88mm available for purchase
4) PaK Ambush.................PaK 38 is now movable when cloaked
5) Defensive Supplies........All mines gain one extra use, Volks may purchase grenades
6) Rapid Deployment.........All support teams deploy/pack up in 1 second
7) Military Intelligence........Battle advantage that reveals an area for ten seconds (reveals cloaked units, drops flares to ‘notify’ enemies)
*(must be narrowed down to five)
Tier 2

1) Fatherland Fort. .............When defending, attackers receive one more minute of deployment time. R+/ME, opponents gain 30s more deployment time
2) Ready Rounds................25% timer reduction for Nebel + Stuka
3) For the Fatherland ..........Grants use
4) Registered Artillery..........Grants use; only in friendly territory
5) Heavy Weapons..............HMG 42 gains +5 range, mortar gains +25% suppression, both gain 15% accuracy

Tier 3
1) Rocket Arty.....................Grants use
2) Senior Officers................Officer Supervision now works as a passive ability in a 20m radius
3) Scopes...........................Volks/Grenadiers gain 15% sight, range, and accuracy on all weapons
4) Large Rockets.................50% increase in damage from Stuka + Nebelwerfer
5) Superior Training.............All units start at Vet 1

Tier 4
1) Fatherland Defense..........All units gain 20% HP
2) Omniscience....................All units gain 35% sight and stealth detection
3) Camo Equipment.............All infantry gain Fallschirmjager cloak
4) Incendiary Rockets...........Flame DoT added to Stuka, Nebel DoT increased by 50%
5) Susp Aftershock...............Doubles amount of shells in Registered + Rocket Arty. Grants two extra used of Reg Arty, one extra use of Rocket Arty.

BoBSMITH and I worked pretty hard on revising the Defensive doctrine; he came up with something a few differences, and he'll post his in this thread in a bit.
I'll post my reasoning for these changes in the second post.

If you would like a Word Document copy of this, for whatever reason, it can be found here:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TB3DC2PU

[Illegal_Carrot]

Tier 1
1) Basic Fortifications: The current Basic Fort. allows Volksgrenadiers and Pioneers to build trenches. I'm sorry but this is absolutely useless; trenches are deathtraps, and both of those units can build sand bags already. Instead, I replaced with with something much more functional, and it may actually cause MG Bunkers to be taken in some battalions (in their current state, MG Bunkers are terrible).
Previously, there was an unlock that reduced the MG Bunker's Pop cost by 1. Though this was eventually scrapped, I wanted to bring back something in the same spirit as that unlock, and it's very fitting for the Defensive doctrine.

2) Advanced Warning: Previously, AW gave 15% sight on all units. Then it was reduced to 10%. Then it was put on infantry only. In its current state, it's a fairly useless, and the only reason to take it is because Basic Fortifications sucks, not because it's actually good in any way. Putting it on all units would give it some actual purpose, by improving the Bike's scouting capabilities.

3) Flak 88 AA/AT: The Flak 88 is more of a liability, and a gimmick, than it is an actual weapon. It's easily avoided, easily negated, easily taken out, and easily captured. Other doctrine's specific units (Storms, Tigers, KTs, Commandos, etc) are feared for for both their power and effectiveness, while the 88 is hardly ever even seen on the battlefield. Moving it to a T1 wouldn't increase its effectiveness any, but it would certainly increase its viability.
Also, Luftwaffe unlocks both the Flak 38 and the Flak 36 in a T2, so it makes no sense for Def to unlock only the 88 as a T2.
5) Defensive Supplies: Both other Wehr doctrines get extra mines + grenades/fausts, but Defensive, the one who is most deserving of this, goes  away empty-handed. The extra mine is certainly fitting for Defensive, and the grenade on Volks seems like a nice substitute vs the extra nade/faust of Blitz, or the extra faust/mine of Terror.

6) Rapid Deployment: I felt that Defensive, of all doctrines, should get a T1 that affects support weapons. The reduction to 1 second deployment/pack up time seems like a fairly nice buff, but not too over the top.

7) Military Intelligence: As is is, the Defensive MI is pathetic, and does not deserve a T2 spot. It either needs to be a T1, with slight buffs, or remain a T2, and receive some serious buffs.
Similarly, both Luftwaffe and Airborne receive scouting runs as a T1, so it makes no sense for Defensive to have an inferior unlock as a T2.

As I mentioned, these seven unlocks would have to be reduced to five, if there were to be implemented.

Tier 2
3) For the Fatherland: Both Blitz and Terror unlock Blitzkrieg and Inspired Assault as T1s. There's no reason for FTFL (which must be used in friendly territory), Defense's equivalent, to be a T3. In addition to bringing it into line with other doc's abilities, it also makes it much more appealing to take. Many have said that FTFL isn't worth the T3 slot, and I'd have to agree with them.

4) Registered Artillery: While I am a bit hesitant to include any more off-maps, the Defensive doctrine definitely deserves some. With its drawbacks (must be used in friendly territory, only effective against infantry, red smoke warning [unlike Strafe]), it definitely wouldn't be OP, and would allow Def to be the Wehr's artillery doctrine (which it's supposed to be, with RA, Ready Rounds, Large Rockets, Stuka unlock, etc).

5) Heavy Weapons: Expanding on the fact that Def should be the support weapon doctrine, I created this unlock as the equivalent to Terror's Advanced Munitions. I thought long and hard on appropriate buffs, and asked many people their opinions. In the end, I found that a slight range buff on the MG42, or a slight suppression buff on the Mortar wouldn't be too much, and neither would the small accuracy buff on both.

Tier 3
2) Senior Officers: I'm not sure what the Officer's Supervise radius will be, but it should be about 20; in line with the other officers.

3) Scopes lol. Nothing really needs to be said about why it needs a buff, but I suppose I'll say a few things anyways. Scopes, as it is, obviously sucks, but I had to decide on what to change it too. The current 10% sight/range was rather pathetic for a T3, so I upped it a bit, and included an increased accuracy buff. The sight bonus only affects infantry (and only Volks/Grens at that), so I don't see it as any sort of problem. Honestly, if it's toned down any more, it's fall back into being useless.

5) Superior training: Previously, there was a T2 that had all infantry units start at Vet 1, though the unlock was later scrapped. I brought it back, with some changes, as a T3. Seeing as most vet 1 benefits are reduced damage/penetration/accuracy, it fit into the Defensive mind set very well. Also, because vet 1 isn't very hard to achieve on any unit, it certainly wouldn't be OP for it's price (and maybe even useless for those who are good at gaining/retaining Vet on their units).

Tier 4
2) Omniscience: Short and simple, Omni is useless unless it affects Bikes (and doubly useless since it only affect infantry ATM). To compensate for affecting all units (like it previously did), I reduced the increase to 35% from 40%, though this could further be reduced to 30% if deemed necessary. But it's gotta be on bikes.

3) Camouflage Equipment: The current camo equipment, though a great idea, is pretty terrible. All inf gaining FJ cloak certainly wouldn't be OP as a T4, and may even be UP. Changes may be needed, depending on how it works out in-game. This ability is one that's hard to gauge it's effectiveness without seeing it in action.

4) Incendiary Rockets: As I mentioned before, Defensive is supposed to be Wehr's artillery doctrine, and this unlock would further enforce that. Though I'm sure some would say it seems useless, Nebel/Stuka heavy battalions would gain a lot form taking this T4, over the others.

5) Suspended Aftershock: The current SA, like many other Def T4s, is simply no up to scratch as it is. The changes I made were both to make it more effective, and more in line with other T4s (AB's Aerial Superiority especially).

Alright, done with all the unlocks. I hope you like the changes I've made, and agree with my reasoning. Whether you like what you see or not, please comment. I worked long and hard on this, so I'd like to hear how I could make it better.

[EliteGren]

Very good post.

[Mukip]

Seems pretty good overall, a few concerns:

*You could stack sight bonuses for a 50% extra sight range.  You don't need a tier 1, a tier 3 AND a tier 4 that grants sight bonuses.

*The devs dispensed with most doctrines that affect "All units" so I'd narrow down their benefits more.  Looks at Crete Veterans or British Grit for instance, they don't affect the entire army.  Reduce Omniscience to affect infantry and support weapons.  Not sure what to do with Superior Training.

*Your T3 scopes could be toned down a bit, remove the sight bonus perhaps to help with my first point.

[Rocksitter]

 Some very good ideas here seems you put some thought behind it..I have not played DD in its current state so my opinion does not matter on the subject..

[EliteGren]

I'm one of the few people who played defensive extensively and I agree with the majority of this post, but the main things that need to be changed are:

-FTFL has to go back running on a 7 minute cooldown timer if it stays T3, else move to T2.
-Scopes needs to have the accuracy bonus increased, or the old range increase back.
-Omniscience needs to go back to affect EVERY unit.

And lastly, the 1 second support team deployment does seem a bit over the top for me. You would not want to see MGs changing their arc of fire once every second and thus supressing any potential flanks.

[Baine]

I like the change to the bunkers/mgbunkers!

[Illegal_Carrot]

Thanks a lot everyone, for both the comments and the support. I'll address a few things quickly, then I'm of to bed.

*You could stack sight bonuses for a 50% extra sight range.  You don't need a tier 1, a tier 3 AND a tier 4 that grants sight bonuses.
*The devs dispensed with most doctrines that affect "All units" so I'd narrow down their benefits more.  Looks at Crete Veterans or British Grit for instance, they don't affect the entire army.  Reduce Omniscience to affect infantry and support weapons.  Not sure what to do with Superior Training.
*Your T3 scopes could be toned down a bit, remove the sight bonus perhaps to help with my first point.

1: AW seems fine by itself, Scopes only affects Volks/Grens, so no worry there, and Omni needs to be good as it's a T4. Even then, Omni could be further reduced to 30%, or made to not stack with AW.
2: I see no problem with a few abilities affecting all units, even if there aren't many in other docs.
Looking over all the 'all units' abilities; they'd all be useless if they only affect one unit type.
3: If Scopes is toned down any more, it'll go back to being useless. The bonuses it gives aren't OP or anything, and they only affect Volks/Grens to begin with.

Some very good ideas here seems you put some thought behind it..I have not played DD in its current state so my opinion does not matter on the subject..

Nonsense, of course you opinion matters. You could at least provide whether you think these changes are appropriate/needed as compared to other doctrine's.

I'm one of the few people who played defensive extensively and I agree with the majority of this post, but the main things that need to be changed are:

-FTFL has to go back running on a 7 minute cooldown timer if it stays T3, else move to T2.
-Scopes needs to have the accuracy bonus increased, or the old range increase back.
-Omniscience needs to go back to affect EVERY unit.

And lastly, the 1 second support team deployment does seem a bit over the top for me. You would not want to see MGs changing their arc of fire once every second and thus supressing any potential flanks.

Good to see we agree on most everything, but I still don't think it's too much. It's be 1 second to pack up, the MG would have to move to position/face, then 1 second to deploy before firing. It'd certainly make support teams (MGs in particular) much more effective, but then again, that's the entire point of the unlock.

As a quick bit, I'd like to help everyone who helped me make this, especially BoBSMITH. He's off to be for tonight, but I think he'll post his on doctrine revisions when he's on next.

[Akranadas]

Range, Sight and Accuracy buffs in the same ability are a no no.

It's either 1, or none.

[Aggamemnon]

Bunkers shouldn't cost 0. Ever.

[Killer344]

I'm a defensive player atm and I'm gonna make it simple for now :

Doctrine Unlock
1)   Officer ok
2)   “Walking” Stuka Halftrack ok

Tier 1
1) Basic Fortifications.........MG/Bunkers cost 0 Pop, angle and range increased to that of MG42 ok
2) Advanced Warning.........All units gain 10% sight ok
3) Flak AA/AT....................Flak88mm available for purchase ok
4) PaK Ambush.................PaK 38 is now movable when cloaked ok
5) Defensive Supplies........All mines gain one extra use, Volks may purchase grenades ok
6) Rapid Deployment.........All support teams deploy/pack up in 1 second OP
7) Military Intelligence........Battle advantage that reveals an area for ten seconds (reveals cloaked units, drops flares to ‘notify’ enemies)
*(must be narrowed down to five) ok
Tier 2

1) Fatherland Fort. .............When defending, attackers receive one more minute of deployment time. R+/ME, opponents gain 30s more deployment time ok
2) Ready Rounds................25% timer reduction for Nebel + Stuka ok
3) For the Fatherland ..........Grants use ok
4) Registered Artillery..........Grants use; only in friendly territory Close to OP
5) Heavy Weapons..............HMG 42 gains +5 range, mortar gains +25% suppression, both gain 15% accuracy OP

Tier 3
1) Rocket Arty.....................Grants use ok
2) Senior Officers................Officer Supervision now works as a passive ability in a 20m radius ok
3) Scopes...........................Volks/Grenadiers gain 15% sight, range, and accuracy on all weapons Extremely OP
4) Large Rockets.................50% increase in damage from Stuka + Nebelwerfer ok
5) Superior Training.............All units start at Vet 1 Close to UP

Tier 4
1) Fatherland Defense..........All units gain 20% HP ok
2) Omniscience....................All units gain 35% sight and stealth detection ok
3) Camo Equipment.............All infantry gain Fallschirmjager cloak ok
4) Incendiary Rockets...........Flame DoT added to Stuka, Nebel DoT increased by 50% ok
5) Susp Aftershock...............Doubles amount of shells in Registered + Rocket Arty. Grants two extra used of Reg Arty, one extra use of Rocket Arty. OP

[EIRRMod]

Superior training also gives 20% extra gained xp.

[Ununoctium]

I have a problem with all units being able to camo and getting first strike.
It better not include support weapons because a camoed mg42 is a bitch... this could be so nuts for defending but you woudl sacrifice a T4.

[Unkn0wn]

The Camo Equipment ability was scrapped a while back.

[Smokaz]

Superior soldiers doesnt need a buff, if it affects all units its freaking awesome.

[EliteGren]

Now I get 12 xp instead of 10 when I kill a sherman, wooohoo.

[salan]

its a good post carrot, somehow i missed it previously.

we WILL be doing a sweep through doctrines after we are done, there are a few (omniscince) i want to take a look at to bring into the same realm as the rest of the t4s.

[CafeMilani]

 after we are done

very nice

[Mysthalin]

1 second pack-up set-up would mean you can not ever kill a Mortar. It could dodge ANYTHING, even a precision strike, if someone dropped one on it.

So.... OP.

If we stacked AW, your Scopes and Omni together we'd get 57 sight range grens/volks.
Too stack-able. Remove sight bonus from scopes, improve accuracy slightly.

Camo equipement has a possibility of being horribly OP. Now you see a sherman, now you see 2 squads of double shrek grens jumping on it's burning carcass. The rifles on the grenadiers would simply destroy anything without even being noticed.

Susp Afterschock - horribly OP - double the shells would make sure any target in an entire screen is absolutely obliterated almost instantly, with no chance to even retreat out of it.

Basic Fortifications could be exploited endlessly as a gimmick, so no - it's OP.

[VictorTarget]

I'm going to have to speak out against a few things. 

Tier 1
1) Basic Fortifications.........MG/Bunkers cost 0 Pop, angle and range increased to that of MG42
-I don't think this is the right way to do it.  We've all played games against bunker spam, I think, and I'm fairly sure that nobody enjoyed it.  Increasing range, or even allowing the bunker's MG to turn after some minor lag (with the exception of the rear) wouldn't bother me, but it needs the pop.

6) Rapid Deployment.........All support teams deploy/pack up in 1 second
-Sorry, but I can't sign off on this. I -could- sign off on it if it were only the deploy time that was reduced.  The pack up is where the thing is vulnerable, if you get around it, you can hurt it.  But deploy helps almost as much, and shouldn't make the MG entirely uncounterable.  It will, however, still be hard to counter.

Tier 2
Cool.  Don't mind these.

Tier 3
3) Scopes...........................Volks/Grenadiers gain 15% sight, range, and accuracy on all weapons
-Sorry, I disagree.  Not a problem if you're thinking just the k98, but as soon as you add the LMG42 and the shreck, or even the MP40, then you've got some crazed infantry running around.  Another, off-the-wall suggestion would be to have this affect snipers only, without the sight buff. 

5) Superior Training.............All units start at Vet 1
-I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with this, unless all the units still start at 0 XP, despite being vet 1. 

Tier 4
2) Omniscience....................All units gain 35% sight and stealth detection

This is....massive.  But overall, I don't think it's a problem, as long as stealth detection is while the unit is not moving.  This concerns me most because of previous range increase abilities which could make this turn all those units into all-seeing, all-destroying OP.  I'd prefer if it were only infantry. 


3) Camo Equipment.............All infantry gain Fallschirmjager cloak
-Cloak is an ability that absolutely must not be misused.  Only the very elite units have it, or super-specialized troops. Many axis players complain about PIATs, but imagine three squads of grens, two with LMGs, and one with a shreck.  Nothing could get by them.  Infantry would crumble, and tanks would be left burning wrecks.

I think this needs to be taken in another direction.  Defensive seems to rely mostly on sight, range, and support weapons.  A quick glance through T4 shows that there are no T4's that buff specifically support weapons.  I think that here would be a good time for some fun play and toys, such as adding buyable upgrades to what they've got.

+Incendiary Round for the Wehrmacht mortar, ala MTHT.
+Mark Target on the PaK, or a single-use White Phosphorous for a significant sum.
+A nicely attractive scope buy for snipers, allowing a slight range increase.
+I'm not so sure on the MG42.  I keep leaning toward AP rounds, to even the score on light vehicles, but that doesn't seem to do justice.  Other options are insignificant, but playing with 'Lit Up' yesterday makes me think that allowing the MG42 to pop an ability that lessens cover concerns may be what we need here.  Cut cover advantages/disadvantages by 50%, perhaps?

I'd like them all to be single-use, to show special, veteran equipment that is custom-made and in short supply, but what do you guys think?

5) Susp Aftershock...............Doubles amount of shells in Registered + Rocket Arty. Grants two extra used of Reg Arty, one extra use of Rocket Arty.
-This made me cringe.   Sure, a T4 is supposed to be powerful, but this is hugely destructive.  You could hold a whole line with just callins for the first half of the game with this.  Increase the number of uses, OR increase the rounds, but most certainly not both.