[PE] Tank Hunters - Telescopic sights

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[pqumsieh]

Hey guys,

The +10 range given by this ability is a bit too much I'm finding. More so when its used with the 50mm ATHT. To put this into perspective, +10 range is a %20-30 increase in range on most AT platforms for a tank hunter.  First off, I think range buffs should NOT be added to units as it causes too many balance issues. Secondly, if they are given, they must be done so with extreme caution.

I am either proposing removing/reducing the range increase on the T4 or removing it from the ATHT and the Marder if it has not already been done. 65 meter range is just too great, causing these units to easily snipe and destroy most armor. The amount of effort it takes to counter these units, specically the 50mm, is far too great. Essentially, this unit has become a mobile flak 88, exchanging damage/range for mobility/cost.

I realize the 50mm ATHT and doctrines are still being balanced, so I am simply bringing this up so the devs are aware that many allies are having an extremely difficult time dealing with these new units. Part of it is due to the fact that we still need to learn the proper counters, but when in the hands of good players, countering units with 65 meters in range is not easy.

What do the rest of you think, lets try and keep this unbiased/civil.

PQ

[DarkSoldierX]

Marder has bad angle, and the upgunned ATHT is a bit weak, you can take it out with just bullets, which is very easy considering your AB and rangers will totaly rape it >.<.

BTW this goes to the irony of we the axis having the tanks and you guys having all that infantry. I have seen only 1 sherman spammer in the last 30 days which is sad seeing that I am tank hunter .

[DasNoob]

It doesn't effect the Marder.

Actually I think quite the opposite.  First off, it is only 1 doctrine that you will ever see the increased range on the ATHT 50mm, slimier to tank reapers only making few 57 actually scary.

Secondly, and most importantly, it is one of very few, if any ways for PE (again only tank hunters) to actually harass allied AT lines and force a decision.

The decision is either to move your ATG slightly forward and try to go for the 2 shots it takes to pop the ATHT, or to move your 57/6lb back away from the line.

Overall, fine as is considering it is a T4 tank hunters doctrine that gives the unit this +5 range more then an ATG.  Now... if the unit actually had more staying power, or more armor then I would agree with you, but it doesn't.

Essentially, this unit has become a mobile flak 88, exchanging damage/range for mobility/cost.

   I would have left this out of your argument tbh.

[Groundfire]

Marder has bad angle, and the upgunned ATHT is a bit weak, you can take it out with just bullets, which is very easy considering your AB and rangers will totaly rape it >.<.

BTW this goes to the irony of we the axis having the tanks and you guys having all that infantry. I have seen only 1 sherman spammer in the last 30 days which is sad seeing that I am tank hunter .

having 2 doctrinal infantry unit types as counters in the opposing army does not justify the range increase, and their ability to hamstring any allied armor.

It doesnt matter if the upgunned ATHT/marder has shit armor when you cant get to it to begin with.

If you lose either of those units to small arms, your just playing stupid.

Annnnnnnd also, the reason why you havent seen a sherman spammer is because, allied armor gets vaporized infront all of this AT that can be fielded right now.
Elite infantry is the only effective choice we have now.

[DarkSoldierX]

Or, How bought do what I do! Combined arms! HOORAY! WE CAN HAVE A PANTHER 2 P4's AND A SUPERCOOL ASSAULT GRENADIER AND TANKHUNTER FORCE WITH A FEW PANZER GRENADIERS ON THE SIDE HOORAY!

[AmPM]

Or you can do what most people with a brain do, run extended range AB with RRs forward and pop it in a volley, then run away.

You know, since AB are almost impossible to keep from running, and have the same range as most tanks.

Lets see, how about getting it to fire at your manz, then wiggling your atg into range?

Oh, or using offmaps...

Or just bum rushing it with a clowncar.

Your problem in our game, was you kept running armor at 3 of them all game....

And with allies, the only reinforcement package anyone really takes is....Airborne!

[Malevolence]

Hey guys,

The +5 range given by this ability [RR range buff] is a bit too much I'm finding. More so when it's used with the Airborne riflemen/Airborne RRs. To put this into perspective, +5 range is enough to not get kited at all by tanks. First off, I think range buffs should NOT be added to units as it causes too many balance issues. Secondly, if they are given, they must be done so with extreme caution.

I am either proposing removing/reducing the range increase on the T4 or removing it from the Airborne if it has not already been done. 40 range is just too great, causing these units to easily snipe and destroy most armor. The amount of effort it takes to counter these units, specifically the RRs, is far too great. Essentially, this unit has become a mobile flak 88, exchanging damage/range for mobility/cost.

I realize the airborne RRs and doctrines are still being balanced, so I am simply bringing this up so the devs are aware that many axis are having an extremely difficult time dealing with these new units. Part of it is due to the fact that we still need to learn the proper counters, but when in the hands of good players, countering units with 40 meters in range is not easy.

What do the rest of you think, lets try and keep this unbiased/civil.

ML

[AmPM]

In other news

[Killer344]

yeah, lets use OP shit to deal with the enemy OP shit lolololol, in the end, it balances itself alone, the system is perfect.

[Smokaz]

If the units the 57mm and the 6pounder are supposed to counter outrange them, balance goes out the window. I talked to nevyen and ampm about this, they seemed hesistant to agree with me and claimed it was a situation blessed by EIRRMOD. I'm sure EIRRMOD will pick up on this sooner or later, however.

70 range marders and panthers were nerfed because they caused similar problems.

Some range increases turn balance and the counter system upside down. I'd personally say range increases should be left out for most units, agreeing with Mal.

Mg's and mortars dont break the counter system when they get range increases. Tanks shooting at guns before they can shoot back, or "kiting" at guns does.

As for PE ability to harass the "at lines", there's something called flanks, baiting, and most importantly the hotchkiss stuka and the mortar halftracks, assault nades etc. Noone else fights dug in positions without sacrificial units etc. Of course, the hotchkiss stuka and the mortar ht might need buffs if this is currently impossible to do.

I've been saying for a while that I think the mortar ht should receive +5 range, PE needs their mortar. Right now using it in the open is pretty tough because of at guns creeping up on it. Also, its too bad they made mortar HT smoke a doctrinal ability. This could have been useful for PE who have ballistic or unaffected AT-AI options on all their infantry. (Faust, AT nade, incendary, fire bomb from FSJ)

[AmPM]

Should also remove the range buff from CCT, it allows CW tanks to outrange other tanks, and thus breaks the balance.

They aren't really that hard to kill, you just need to be willing to make a sacrifice.

Either way, I use them well, but they still die quite often, about as much as Marders do.

I personally think the range is fine, it's a t4 that only affects....2 vehicles....but the Rate of Fire is too high. It should be increased maybe 30-40% between shots to lower the DPS output.

[pqumsieh]

Are people that immature that they take any suggestion a player makes and take a personal position on it. I am not going to name names, but seriously if you cannot engage in a balance discussion then do not do it.

Groundfire is right, a properly micro'd 50mm or Marder can be very devistating. Can only one doctrine truely utilize it? Sure. Does it make it any less of an issue? That said, at no point did I say airborne weren't an issue and do not possible need a nerf. The fact of the matter is, that was not apart of the discussion, the 65 meter range on the ATHT and 70 meter range on the Marder (although I thought it was excluded) is what we were reviewing.

Salan has already noted that the 50mm is not balanced just yet, providing feedback on its utility is all I was trying to do. The way I see it, people need to stop being so damn biased and defending any and all changes that improve the faction they play. Its immature in the sense that those reponses are self centered and misdirected. Rather then trying to improve the overall gameplay of this mod people are more interested in their personal investments. I hope this post does not get deleted, because a lot of people fall under this category. Hopefully they realize it and change the way they think/act.

As a final note, lets remember we are still in a beta as far as development goes. Doctrines/Units have not been balanced just yet and devs require feedback from pplayers in order to improve gameplay for everyone.

Thats all,

PQ

EDIT: Mal, I'd just like to say I really appreciated your last post. Rahter then flaming you came up with somethign constructive, thanks for that.

[DasNoob]

People might receive your arguments of range better if they were made using many different "balance breaking" units as examples instead of the single PE unit.  That is if your argument is that range should be left out.

Bias can be viewed in the forums both ways.  The whole mobile 88 comment kinda points toward that as it was clearly an exaggeration.  

[Groundfire]

Airbourne range increase should have it's own topic. If you think it should be changed, then Ampm, malevolence, mabey you should post something on it.

Giving various units the ability to fire away and not get hit themselfs should be reserved for balancing units, not as a general buff.

PE anti tank vehicles need as much a range increase as Airbourne RRs do. (which means that they shouldnt receive any)

But for example, the Firefly on the other hand, requires its long range because it's a glass cannon.

Yeah, some could argue that the upgunned ATHT falls under these parameters, but its cheap in pop and price, and is spammable.

Spamable units in from every faction should not get range increases, and yes, IMO, this should apply to airbourne as well.

[AmPM]

My personal feel is that all t4's should be Overpowered in their specialization.

The t4 that you choose should be doctrine and company defining.

If you take a t4 it should give you a massive advantage.

Its no more unfair than say, offmaps of any tier, since they can hit you, and you can NEVER hit them back.

By your logic, snipers, offmaps, and any long range artillery is op, since it can hit and not get hit back easily.

[EliteGren]

Its not spammable, 2 available so that argument fails. If anyone wants more, sure let him pay those 8 pps for oversupply and spam them. But he pays a high price for it. And I wouldnt call them cheap either, its 100 muni per AT HT if you count in repairs.

[Groundfire]

A.) Offmaps are not Units that cost manpower/munitions/fuel. They do not fire/reload/run around the map/ is something that can die/ is apart of the opposing players army.

They do not have range, apart from the caster's LOS and your own LOS, therefore do not fit into this discussion.

B.) Snipers and Onmap Arty are not spammed, and if they are, it is at an incredible resource sink to that player, thus it warrants the indirect fire/ increased range.

C.) The units listed in B.) only take a lucky crit, or a single offmap to eliminate, making the risk/reward of these units slim.

these things cannot be compared to upgunned ATHTs, or airbourne RRs on the subject of "Range increases are OP"

Although i do agree, that a T4 should give a company significant advantages, but range increases for spammable AT units is just too good at the numbers they are at now.

edit for elitegren- Those who wish to do it will oversupply the unit, and for they're job, 5 upgunned ATHTs is spam. It's like a wehr co. having 5 paks. and with the amount of games you ppl all put in, im sure PPs would be no object. They never were with this availability system we have.

[AmPM]

By Spammable, you mean 2 before paying PP...on units that have no retreat and paper armor?

[DasNoob]

By Spammable, you mean 2 before paying PP...on units that have no retreat and paper armor?

Don't forget not recrewable. 

[Groundfire]

yeah, you all can act like your utter noobs at micro, but lets face it, you guys dont let those things die easily and you know it.