Offmap poll - READ DESCRIPTIONS

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[EIRRMod]

What would you change about how Europe In Ruins : Reinforcements handles offmaps.

Voting options:
Tweak uses, Max and/or free - increase
Increase the maximum and/or the number of free uses granted by the doctrine selection. 
Note: This may be viable if we add a spotter unit.
Result:  More artillery uses allowed.

Tweak SP costs, per use  - increase
Increase the SP costs per use.  Either initial cost (for the first one) or how much it increases.
Result:  Increases the SP investment per use.

Tweak uses, Max and/or free - decrease
Decrease the maximum and/or the number of free uses granted by the doctrine selection.
Result:  Removes the number of offmaps usable in game, possibly limiting certain doctrines - may be counterable with on-map abilities.

Tweak SP costs, per use  - decrease
Decrease the SP costs per use.  Either initial cost (for the first one) or how much it increases.
Result:  Decreases the SP investment per use.

Uses and Costs are fine
You feel that SP Costs, and Max / Free uses are fine the way they are.
They may need changes in other areas (or, in your opinion, none at all)
Result:  Status-Quo

Remove uses, create timers
Uses are no longer used as a limiter.  Instead, every offmap has a timer - which is scaled on power and tier.
Result:  Battle Advantages are no longer tied to 'uses', and removed as a SP sink (for multiple).  Indirectly, the SP cost to 'allow' the ability will be added.

Limit Offmaps via unit targeting
Offmaps, instead of being able to target any location in LOS, will now be tied to units that can only target withing their limited LOS.
Result:  Offmaps will now need to be used tactically, and are tied to a somewhat 'fragile' platform.

Please post constructively, there are no changes slated at this time - this post is purely to gather feedback.
Also note, that the current war has progressed MUCH further than normal, and the amount of offmaps is slightly skewed - giving more than normal amounts of offmap arty.

[SaintPauli]

I think that each doctrine should get their own unique onmap artillery piece and all offmaps should be removed (except a limited number of offmaps involving planes. These should cost munitions).

Blitz: Stuka
Terror: Nebelwerfer
Defensive: Axis howitzer from ToV campaign

Tank Hunters: Hotchkiss
Scorched Earth: Hummel
Luftwaffe: Air dropped mortars (+tweaked Henschel)

Armor: Calliope
Infantry: Howitzers
Airborne: Air dropped mortars (+ tweaked strafe and bombing run)

Artillery: Priest 
Engineers: 25 pounders
Commandoes: Glider dropped mortars (+ plane with rocket strike)

[AmPM]

I personally like the offmaps, it adds some flavor. If you weather the storm, its much easier to beat a t4 offmap doctrine than a t4 like HEAT or something that adds buffs to a large array of units.

Its not hard to avoid them, even the RCA random arty fun. Just leave a unit to hold the area and pull back or to the sides.

Having every doctrine just giving out buffs would be boring, and the command bunker/unit option basically becomes a race to get your recon to them and keep them from getting sight on you.

I find them much less annoying than on map arty.

[DuckOfDoom]

I think sp costs and uses are fine as they are, however, the problem with offmaps is that they are TOO accurate. All offmaps should have a much bigger scatter distance, minimum of 10-15 in-game units from the center of the area affected or more. Ofcourse, things like v1 and precision strike should have the scatter distance lessened to that of 5 in game units (half the normal scatter) or less since they are considered to be "accurate". But the golden rule should be that artillery should be used for supression and denial and not employed like a sniper attack.

[Raio]

concentrate eir playstyle to more basic strategy.
u'll be surprised how much u can find in so few

 less doctr stuff, more head_use.
   mr.oldschool

[simpson02]

I think very similarly to SaintPaulis idea.
However i believe that as well as every faction having its own onmap artillery unit each faction should also get its own unique offmap artillery but try and balance it out so for example air dropped mortars are much weaker artillery compared to howitzers so Luftwaffe, Airbourne and Commandos should have more powerful offmaps. This will make the game much more balanced than it is now as factions without artillery seem to struggle especially at this stage of the game where factions with artillery have enough pp to get the max number of strikes.

[Raio]

Saint +1

    the best i saw on forums.
  concetraded on basic strategy/units.

[LeoPhone]

explain via post:

ive got the feeling that axis has much more offmaps than allies. if thats right, it need balance.
also what i dont like is when the enemy uses their arty at the beginning of the game, killing for instance your ATG, and becouse you lost your AT, the enemy rushes in with their tank and you lose all your other unit.
id like to have a large timer on the 1st use of te offmap, so you can only use it after like 10 minutes or more.

the artillery i really hate is precision strike. its just a killmymortarbutton and it will alway hit.
i prefer offmaps where you always have a chanse of getting away(when supressed that would be retreat) and the arty should be less powerful and more supressing the enemy, damaging tank engines and destroying cover.
for instance precision strike can be changed to a barrage that buttons tanks and ATGS, and stun infantry in an area of effect.
these kinds of arty dont just kill the enemy, they help you to do it, and you wont make many kills with it untill you start moving your units into the enemy.

[EIRRMod]

DuckOfDoom, LeoPhone, you are both quite right when you mention the accuracy of offmaps is an issue.

If they are 'clickable' they should not be 'I win' buttons.

[Osprey]

Well, personally I always felt the issue with off-maps was that it helped even the playing field. it made it so that even poor players could help out in some useful way and potentially destroy a nuisance unit. It was always my aim to make up for lack of battlefield skill in my earlier days by being able to provide my allies with some form of powerful support.

The problem for most players was that losing vet to an off-map is a bitter pill to swallow when it takes so many games to get a unit into any kind of meaningful veterancy level. That, and that they are usually used against support weapons such as mortars and AT guns, which inevitably you have no more than 1-3 of in a company due to their high costs, so it's essentially a few munitions for the removal of a 400ish manpower support weapon.

Compared to field artillery, off-maps also contribute to the evening the experience/vet inbalance by being of roughly equal strength and usefulness across the board, unlike for example, the disparity between a 3rd level veteran artillery units and a fresh artillery units, each of which can take a sizeable chunk out of a new players resources, and with which they may not be either very good, or may be finding it hard to keep them alive.

Now, I like the sound of them being on timers rather than having uses. It would give equal availability to each player, dependent on length of game and frequency of use rather than needing to sacrifice long-term PPs on off-map increase doctrines for something that could potentially be reduced to little more than a hailstorm if there is a major balance issue. The problem is of course that suddenly we end up with a potentially limitless supply of V1s and bombing runs, but then true warfare has never been a peaceful/relaxing process.

The balance should not be about the strength of the off-map. tweaking with strengths of these things will just become an endless game of "why can't my V1 kill a Pershing", or "V1s should not be Pershing kill buttons." Instead the balance needs to be in the time limit between uses. Level of destruction, usefulness against mobile and static targets, ability to attrition enemy companies, etc all needs to be factored in to that discussion. Clearly for example, precision strike should be more frequent than off-map howitzers. However, this does not mean that a precision strike should be 2 minutes and a howitzer 3, nor does it mean that they should be 3 minutes and 15 minutes respectively.

Just so people understand my position, I doubt a true balance for this game can even be found in all honesty. When taking into account all the variables (unit speeds, strength, armour, suppression, manpower, fuels, availability, pop-cap, veterancy, player skill,doctrine enhancements, resource bonuses, map layouts, player communication, to name only a few) it's a wonder that the game is as well balanced as EIRRMod and the other developers have achieved. But the ability for new players to compete well in their first games for me would seem to be most important, not just for encouraging new players, but for the long-term survivability of the game and the mod, hence my advocacy of free-use off-maps on timer limitations as opposed to changing the usefulness and costs of off-map abilities.


Incidentally, I don't know if this thread includes such off-maps as Zeal, Allied War-machine, etc, however I think it might be worth considering including those in the discussion.

[Smokaz]

Regardless of what is decided, some SP tuning is in order I think. I'm about to head into another likely loss against mudkipz 100+ game airborne company.

I pay 12 SPs for 2 extra uses of ferocity, while mudkipz pays 15 sp for supply drop, 2 extra strafes and 2 bombing runs.

Who gets the most for their money, is just what I ask.

[Tymathee]

I like the tieing it to an on-map unit idea. Makes it so you can't  just press and click into an area way away from where you're fighting and it also makes it so the other team can limit your chance to get that off-map off by killing the unit. Question is, how would you limit this? Every side gets a specific "Off-map Officer" ?

[EIRRMod]

Regardless of what is decided, some SP tuning is in order I think. I'm about to head into another likely loss against mudkipz 100+ game airborne company.

I pay 12 SPs for 2 extra uses of ferocity, while mudkipz pays 15 sp for supply drop, 2 extra strafes and 2 bombing runs.

Who gets the most for their money, is just what I ask.

I hope you voted for less free/ max uses and tweak max ;p

[EIRRMod]

I like the tieing it to an on-map unit idea. Makes it so you can't  just press and click into an area way away from where you're fighting and it also makes it so the other team can limit your chance to get that off-map off by killing the unit. Question is, how would you limit this? Every side gets a specific "Off-map Officer" ?

Yep, thats the idea.

Certain units may also have the ability to 'spot' for certain abilities as well.

[Demon767]

i agree with Tym.

it be harder to put down arty, but its still just as effective as any other arty, although some balance issues may come up, you know FOO [Cpt and LT] German officer still has his Mortar barrage. Precision Arty and to a lesser extent the V1 being more pathetic to call down. precision arty is only good agasint AT, Mortars and MG because it being shot at any infantry can move out of its way wasting a good offmap that it can be used can be more useful agaisnt support weapons, but will the spotter team get close enough? i doubt that i reckon

if its the case, the Blitz may need a howi barrage copycat to balance it.

[Aggamemnon]

Just for comparison I play both Airborne and Royal Canadian Artillery. (used to play blitz, but too many around)

The hardest to play is RCA, as even though they have a lot more offmaps, as AmPm states, it's a lot harder to get a win with single powers than it is to face an entire army with passive buff's on the units.
I have to actively put in more ATG's for RCA as they can't keep up with the number of tanks like AB can.

I know why people cry about offmaps, because they lose things without a "fight", but without them, some situations simply turn into headbutting.
You could argue just as hard about removing mortars, yet every mortar has had it's range increased to match eachother.
These tools add extra dynamics to the game, being able to break a point and advance, and tipping the defence/assault balance so the enemy has to come to get rid of the mortar.

Right now I like the offmaps, for both sides, the major issue at present is that Saturation Mortar Barrage has no warning smoke, and it's use-able in the first 4 minutes of the game.

A lot of people also don't think about when you are facing two offmap doctrines, they think a double strike is a single strike etc.. without really realizing it's not.
Everyone groans when they see a double elite inf rush (AB, Falls, KCH) which can be just as powerful, but because everyone does it, it's accepted.

As long as these powers are balanced (which most seem to be) I think it's fine.
I'd go along with spotters, but RCA already have a lot of powers tied into single units, and I think a LOT of players will start to cry even harder when their own offmaps get tied into spotter units. To be honest, powers like these on spotters should NOT even have smoke, but we all know if they didn't the battlefield would be too unpredictable (which people hate obviously).

Offmaps require a LOT of resources to be put in to be really effective, which is ALWAYS at the cost of other areas in the company (like ATG, or Inf on field).

My RCA Battallion has over 500 munitions and 280 fuel tied into just arty. 3 of those on vulnerable spotter units. It's definately not the most effective form of combat, not by a long shot, but I like to play arty doctrines. To max out my uses, I have to invest just shy of 20 sp (used to be 21) which sometimes I won't get back every game, I usually take 2/3 and 3/3 instead.
My Airborne has everything tied into passive buffs, not only do they perform better as an army, they actually get EXTRA resources given to them through supply drops.

To go even further, a lot of people simply hate to switch-up their usual playing style to adjust to artillery. They are so used to bunching up, and moving around (not always as a blob, just close) presenting massive targets for these types of powers and instead of adjusting approach they start to moan.

Anybody facing a heavy tank, or a HT rush, or Elite infantry knows or quickly learns to adjust to deal with that threat, or they lose hard.

Doctrine choices are supposed to present tough choices to pick from, but also be a worthwhile choice for that army. Right now, Arty is just about keeping up, and that's with two tier 3 choices together.
There are always going to be problems with powers being used together, just like when you get 3 Airborne Battalions or 3 Blitz Battalions, it seems overkill.

No-one can say that passive buff's are not better at this stage.
Be careful not to over compensate for a select few games where there is a lot of offmaps being thrown about.

[Osprey]

I like the tieing it to an on-map unit idea. Makes it so you can't  just press and click into an area way away from where you're fighting and it also makes it so the other team can limit your chance to get that off-map off by killing the unit. Question is, how would you limit this? Every side gets a specific "Off-map Officer" ?

Yep, thats the idea.

Certain units may also have the ability to 'spot' for certain abilities as well.

The issue with an off-map officer is that not only do off-maps then need to be balanced in terms of timers, cost, strength, effectiveness, usefulness and availability, but also in terms of on-field pop-cap, speed and survivability of unit, cost of recruitment in battalion tab, etc. If we're talking something akin to a British Captain, that could mean players removing key units from their builds to make space, and how they call them in in terms of which bundle, call-in timers if they're brought on in the later game, and population availability when trying to call in a 3 pop unit in mid battle with an on-field force of 38.

It's a good concept, but it brings a whole new level of complexity in balancing, strategy and tactical levels which, in all earnestness, only serves to confuse and alienate vCoH players who are trying out a new mod. The more estranged the tactical system becomes from the core game play, the harder it will become for new players to learn how to play effectively, and stick with the mod. As much as I love the core 20+ veteran regulars, long-term survivability and enjoyability of the mod for new people surely has to be a key factor in this.

[Dragon2008]

I think that all powerful offmaps should have no free uses, cost about 4-6 SP per use and only limit to about 2 max uses. All less powerful offmaps should have one free use, cost about 2-4 SP per use and only limit to about 3-4 uses.

E.G.

Type: V1
Free Uses: NO
Cost: 5 SP
Max Uses 1-2 (Its deadly against static emplacements but extremely bad against moving targets.)

Type: Bombing run
Free Uses: NO
Cost: 5 SP
Max Uses: 1-2 ( Deadly against inf/tanks and static emplacements.)

Type: Strafin Run
Free Uses: YES
Cost: 2-4 SP
Max Uses: 2-3 (Good at pinning units and blobs but doesn't deal much damage and only good verse infantry.)

Type: Precision Strike
Free Uses: YES
Cost 2-4 SP
Max Uses 2-3 (Sometimes good against support weapons but extremely bad verse moving targets and long callin time.)

These are jus examples , so don't flame at me for this. I might post more l8er on but need food

[EIRRMod]

Thanks for the input Dragon2008, your post did lack the incremental increase cost though.

Eg, Initial cost 4, incremental 1 would cost:
4 for 1 use
5 for 2 uses
6 for 3 uses

While Initial cost 4, incremental 3 would cost:
4 for 1 use
7 for 2 uses
10 for 3 uses

Useful for scaling.

[EliteGren]

I dont think T3-T4 offmaps should cost SP for the first use still.