Jagd: Balance Thread.

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[RubixCubed]

The Problem: Jagds are the one tank that are WAY too strong. They single handedly take on ANY tank that the allies can field. First I want to take a look at the PROs/CONs of this tank.

Pros:
-Good Anti Tank
-Good Anti Infantry w/ Doctrine buffs. (Link for screenshot http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=11520.0)
-Fast Speed
-Good Armor

Cons:
-No Turret
-Weak Anti-Infantry capabilities without HunterKiller

Issue:
Currently the Jagd (various versions) are way too good for their intended purpose. They actually branch out into other areas (anti inf, anti vehicle, etc) and do decent-good in those. Now from my understand of Company of Heroes I believe every unit should have some sort of flaw. If we look at the Jagd the only flaw it has is without a turret with its fast speed it can still prevent anything from flanking it. (Including panzerfear flanking is nearly impossible). First, Let me compare this to a King tiger which is the only other supertank. The kingtiger has huge amounts of health, turret, high damage but has one HUGE flaw. It's slow.

On the other hand, The jagd is fast, kills infantry decently, and is the perfect tank destroyer. So what flaw does it have besides having no turret? None.

Counters:
Sticky- It is quite easy to sticky a tiger however to sticky a jagd requires a MISTAKE on the other persons part. Utilizing the speed of the JAGD and stickys are never an issue.

Anti Tank- With the fast speed and accuracy vs AT guns the jagd can easily kill 2 AP rounded at guns head on (tested with killer344)

AT Tanks- The M10 & M18 both are poor choices vs the Jagd because the JAGD will kill multiple anti tank tanks. Why shouldn't american AT tanks be able to kill an axis AT tank while the AT axis tank can kill an America tank. It should works both ways.

Firefly- This deserves its own topic but fireflys are expensive and with Panzer Fear it is quite easy to chase one down and kill it. You can even try to button the Jagd but the jagd will still fire at your firefly. It requires the opponent to make a mistake for you to be able to kill it.

Proposal
I propose that the jagd receives some nerf or have a weakness. Now a t4 helps it kill infantry which makes it an even better at its "supposed" weakness. I would suggest making it more VULNERABLE in the rear so flanking with bazookas, m10s, m18s, and other tanks can seriously put the tank in serious trouble. Another idea is to give it a lower health amount so it can actually be on fair ground vs multiple allied tanks.

Tell me what you think.
-Cann0nball

[Killer344]

Panzer fear and Panzer command should be removed, one is an epic tool to grief and and the other just helps to stack buffs like hell and wtfpwn everything on wheels, and the 50mm LAHT needs to be removed from this doctrine, it doesn't need it and it's just too damn good at supporting hetzers and jagds.

Anti Tank- With the fast speed and accuracy vs AT guns the jagd can easily kill 2 AP rounded at guns head on (tested with killer344)

lol, the jagd took them out with 75%HP left + repair kit, and 2 57s with AP is nearly 50% of the total heavy AT most players can field.

[spinn72]

If you can change the Target Tables of the gun reduce it against all inf armour, so it hits infantry as often as a firefly would. 

The Jagd shouldn't be able to kill infantry every shot, but then again it shouldnt be single purpose either.

Also Get rid of its Health and Recieved penetration buffs please and throw something else in there.  Even like rotating speed altogether you can throw in there.  320 health for a vet is just crazy, i mean its getting towards the health of an M10 (400).

[Killer344]

Superheavy tanks could also be hardcapped at 1 only per player tbh.

[CafeMilani]

i just played a game where 2 hellcats w/ AP rounds shot my german steel KT down to a bit less than half health.

this t4 makes is easy to counter heavy tanks.
same with ABs.

the jagds weakness: no turret. rush it with some m10s or hellcats. vet up some rifles to vet2, its quite easy to sticky it.

[AmPM]

Om nom nom nom Heavy Tanks! My favorite snacks are still Hetzers and Panthers.

[spinn72]

i just played a game where 2 hellcats w/ AP rounds shot my german steel KT down to a bit less than half health.

this t4 makes is easy to counter heavy tanks.
same with ABs.

the jagds weakness: no turret. rush it with some m10s or hellcats. vet up some rifles to vet2, its quite easy to sticky it.

1.  Armour company is the entirely specialized company on killing heavy tanks, AP rounds is the best ability the allies get to counter enemy tanks.

2.  A jagdpanther, is lets say, very fast.  So unless you halftrack your Riflemen, you aint gonna get a sticky off.

[wildsolus]

Superheavy tanks could also be hardcapped at 1 only per player tbh.

agreed

1 for kt and jagd

2 for tiger and pershing chuch croc

[Killer344]

2.  A jagdpanther, is lets say, very fast.  So unless you halftrack your Riflemen, you aint gonna get a sticky off.

lol, a jagd is almost as fast as a jeep, and it's noticeable more faster than them with Improved Gearbox, gl trying to sticky it with the rifle + HT combo.

[Smokaz]

LOL - but jagd is OP with some of the stuff affecting it. I dont think it should get accuracy versus infantry neither do I think it should get any considerable range buffs. +5 would be more than enough for this beast, if any at all.

[EliteGren]

Have you tried Ap round M18s? Those rape jagds in da face.

[Draken]

Don't change stats, but this things is to popular, and even in noob hands can do to much.

2 atgs + rrs squad + 4 upguned shermans (at 80 pop) weren't enough to kill 1/4 hp jagd before it reached spawn.

And by saying that armor t4 is a counter is like admiting that it's op, wtf you need a t4 to be able to kill it, dont make me laugh...

[Sach]

I almost killed a jagdpanther once but then it reversed away.

[Smokaz]

One way to alleviate 99% of the problems related to it, is remove the accuracy buff from the hunter killer upgrade. Charging it with handheld AT backed by at guns should be the counter and the jagd should have to back away from this.

[Killer344]

1 jagd per player isn't a problem, 2 it is....

[Tymathee]

One way to alleviate 99% of the problems related to it, is remove the accuracy buff from the hunter killer upgrade. Charging it with handheld AT backed by at guns should be the counter and the jagd should have to back away from this.

agreed

[Killer344]

Says someone who never used them lol, the 25% is needed to make it decent against infantry.

[Mgallun74]

the ungodly health the jagd gets is what makes them such a pain.. not sure why a jagd panther should get 1600health when a normal panther get 742.. nothing about the jagd panther says, hey, iam twice as strong as a panther, it has same front, side and rear armor a panther has, just a better gun really. tigers got 1000 or something, jagd should be around there imho.  they already have insane penetration buffs its just crazy.

jagd and kt could use a downgrade in health to make it more balanced..

[AmPM]

Says someone who never used them lol, the 25% is needed to make it decent against infantry.

Which they shouldn't be.

[CafeMilani]

hunterkiller only works for hetzers and jagds. without the acc buff this t4 is crap. hetzers are a piece of shit with or without it.
jagd doesnt need the dmg and penetration buff but it needs the acc buff.


just limit the availability of ALLheavy tanks to 1.

everything else which is written in this thread is BS imo