Jagd: Balance Thread.

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[DarkSoldierX]

Oh noes here we go. Change the 0.4 accursey vs inf to 0.2 then maybe allies will be happy but dont touch mah T4 since it can only be used with Hetzers and jagd, and like said many times, Hetzers SUCK

[Mgallun74]

drop the health down to more reasonable numbers and i dont care about gun.

[pqumsieh]

the jag is OP because it uses map haks.

discuss!

Edit: after reading some lawl posts, I must say that the base jag is fine. Its the buffs it recieves from doctrines that make it a powerful unit. As far as Im concerned, the Jag should not recieve a nerf; perhaps though the doctrines should be relooked at. It comes down to the same thing 99% of all balance threads are about. Do we balance things against doctrines that are extremely powerful (airborne, TH, blitz, etc) or do we balance it against doctrines that are so so? I think we should nerf some of the more powerful doctrines rather then buff the other doctrines, but thats just my opinion.

In all likelyhood, those complaining about the jag are being outplayed rather then something being too powerful. If a jag is sniping your infantry then the player doing the sniping is obviously kiting you. Jag with Tank Hunters only has 45m range, no different then a P4 with improved barrels with greater accuracy vs infantry. A jag with improved scopes has 55m range but doesnt recieve the accuracy buff; so its sniping capabilities are somewhat limited.

Leave the unit, reconsider the doctrines.

PQ

[jackmccrack]

A Jagd is a pain in the ass and two Jagds is overkill.

Somehow Bulivaif brings two every single game, even if he loses them, which, even in his hands, is rare.

[wildsolus]

remember, right now there is absolutely no regret on losing units since it isn't a real war. people are going to be abusing the fact that they can make as much heavy armour spam as they want and not care at all since they didn't have to grind for the level 8 or the pp to actually get it. it's the ulitmate gimmick time.

[AmPM]

PP and level 8 don't take long to get, figure a week or so at most.

[wildsolus]

youd have to play a shitload of games to reach level 8, max out advantages, doctrines be able to buy offmaps/sp sinks and vet and reach it in a week.

[Mysthalin]

Jagds are the one tank that are WAY too strong. They single handedly take on ANY tank that the allies can field.

An AT SuperHeavy tank beats any allied tank? Duhhhhhhhh?

AT Tanks- The M10 & M18 both are poor choices vs the Jagd because the JAGD will kill multiple anti tank tanks. Why shouldn't american AT tanks be able to kill an axis AT tank while the AT axis tank can kill an America tank. It should works both ways

Are you honestly implying a jagd should die to an M10 or an M18 that cost 4-4.5 times less the fuel?

[Malevolence]

PE sports car is back in force.

[bulivaif]

now i would like o look at some things with jagh and tank hunters doctorine:
- Pe tank hunters don't have offmaps
- They don't have decent infantry against most allies or brits
- they don't have hmg so no decent supresion
- jagh against inf blob and not defended die or be pushed out of map very easily especialy against ab blobs , but it must be like 3 or more groups not 1 or 2.
- jagh with doc buffs is really owesome espeacialy from vet 2-3 but so are many units like tigers, kt, pathers, ab and so on.
- jagh doesn't have turret so he can be easily avoided by other units tanks around obstacles , buildings and so on.
- jagh eats armour for breakfast, that is his speciality about 80% of ppl i played try to kill jagh from front good uck with that, or when they see they run and forget about aobstacles they can use r jagh speed it's their mistake.
- best docs to counter jagh is ab and brits comandos.armour is weakest becouse it's against other doctorines not tank hunters.



countering jagh offence:simple  ab blob, piats comandos , m10 hellcats atacking from side - rare not from front.

defence : puting mines and then luring it or just spaming mines will also do,  brens to stop jagh and other at or even tanks to go from rear.
bloking jagh with small fast venchile like heeps bren carries and son on and using at units kill jagh very effective.
bulletin combo + stcky and jagh with engine damage is dead or must retreat couse slover rotation no turret is easy prey almost for every one.
paks supported by hm and (rangers,ab,reapers,piats and so on) will definatly eat jagh hp ofourse paks must be like 2-3 not 1.

about me i always try to play not urban maps so my jagh culd be much more effective and i have my favortie maps like radar station,tante,bocage bastion which are more open and less urban than others.

and i know players who easily counter jaghs and don;t whine about it , know 80% of this tread peaple are medium players, or playing with their standart build and when crying that they can't beat jagh,or armour docs which like i said is realy weakest doctorine against tank hunters.

[Baine]

Apart from the obvious change to doctrine buffs to the Jagd, in my opinion the PP cost for every special tank(priest/hummel aswell) should be at least doubled.

None of these special weapons should cost less than 10 PP (one average game).

It should hurt to lose one and not be able to buy another one after that game. Pershings and Tigers should be 15 PP, while KT and Jagd 20.
Priests and Hummels, 12 PP
Calliope 15 PP.

[bulivaif]

agree with baine about increasing pp cost , and i would sugest to increase jaghs vet req like kt.

[Smokaz]

8 for pershing/tiger, 15 pp for kt/jagd

Pershings and tigers dont own as hard.

[Mysthalin]

Second PE panther - 6 PP.
Second WM panther - 5 PP.
Can anyone explain to me why? .

[Malevolence]

Because you're spamming panthers?

[Baine]

8 for pershing/tiger, 15 pp for kt/jagd

Pershings and tigers dont own as hard.

Doesn't matter how hard they pwn, but they are special and they shouldn't be easily spammable.

[sgMisten]

Just like to point out the costs of the heavy tanks.

Jag - 630 MP, 595 fuel.
Panther - 610 MP, 500 fuel.
Pershing - (?) 640 MP, 540 (?) fuel.
KT - 900+ MP, 600+ fuel.

The Jag is really more equivalent to a KT in terms of performance rather than a Panther/Pershing/Tiger, but it's cost is closer to that of heavy tanks. It's basically a bargain super heavy tank.

Part of reason why we're having such a tough time against a Jag spammer is that it's cheap for what it can do. A KT user sacrifices more resources, a Jag user does not.

[Baine]

Wow, didn't know it was that cheap manpower wise. It should be at least around 900 manpower.

[sgMisten]

;p

The way the jagd trashes most armor it doesnt really need to rape inf too, and I've used a unvetted hunter killer jagd. It did good even in my clumsy hands. Then again I faced Buliefs jagd with misten and we just trashed it like it was a tuna can. Tank reaper zooks penetrated it sometimes and AP rounds reaper at guns did a big number on it, while normal shots seemed 50%/50%.

You got to keep in mind that the game we played we (the 3 allies)
[1] Were defending, had territory advantage -> Pop cap advantage -> own heavy tank
[2] Were very aggressive
[3] Keeps, you and me have higher than average skill levels
[4] Fought the KTs and Jagds in a small, open area where AT could hit them easily

I can guarantee you in a M/E game with more average skill sets super heavy tanks on more open maps where they can direct their fire power it's a lot more painful.

[Malevolence]

8 for pershing/tiger, 15 pp for kt/jagd

Pershings and tigers dont own as hard.

Doesn't matter how hard they pwn, but they are special and they shouldn't be easily spammable.

Hence availability...