[US] Allied Grit buff

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[Tymathee]

I made this same argument myself. YOu really dont notice a change in their survivability. It either needs something added to the 15% health increase, or the 20%-25% bufff.

[RikiRude]

you really don't notice a difference at all it's pretty sad. i mean either way a P4 is going to gib a guy or two almost each shot. an MG42 will suppress them just as easily as before so the 15% health doesn't help at all. its just like that T1 they had that was like 10% more suppression resistant, didn't make ANY difference, my rifles were still getting suppressed at max range on the first burst.

[Tymathee]

here's an idea...how about adding to allied grit the ability to possibly purchase a 2nd bazooka? Or be able to put BAR's and zooks on your rifles together?

but to grit, put it with cohesion and you'll notice a significant upgrade. You get 9.6 per rifle squad, which is 19.2 with two rifle squads on already added onto that 15% is insane.

[Mysthalin]

Good god, the 14+6 thing again.

It's a retarded way to make your point ucky, it's not a proper argument in any sort of manner whatsoever.

The squad healths are abosutely USELESS and should NEVER be considered in a proper balance argument. It's the health-per-man that counts. No, you would NOT like a 30 man squad each having 15 HP, even though their squad health would be the largest in the game.

Kurt's finest affects a unit with much more killing power, a better armor type to begin with, and that can cloak. Allied grit affects riflemen.

Allied grit, with it's 15 percent buff means it's a 8.25 HP per man buff, putting the rifleman at 63.25 HP. This is a STUNNING increase from 4 grenadier rifle shots, to 5 grenadier rifle shots to kill each rifleman. 6 goes to 7 from a volks man. 1 goes to 1 from a P4, and it stays from 3 to 3 when engaging a puma. An MG/LMG/STG/MP44 will need 2-3 more shots, meaning less than half a second, to kill each rifleman.

Now tell me, how often do you engage just pure vanilla grenadiers and volks?


What does it do for an FJ squad - it allows them to always survive a nuclear pineapple, allows them to destroy enemy infantry even more with the accuracy buff, and helps them much more from rifle fire - especially airborne.

[gamesguy2]

Good god, the 14+6 thing again.

It's a retarded way to make your point ucky, it's not a proper argument in any sort of manner whatsoever.

The squad healths are abosutely USELESS and should NEVER be considered in a proper balance argument. It's the health-per-man that counts. No, you would NOT like a 30 man squad each having 15 HP, even though their squad health would be the largest in the game.

Actually, I would love a 30 man squad with 15 hp each.  Tanks wouldn't be able to touch me.  Only rapid fire weapons would be a worry.    Squad health is very much relevant, to say otherwise is just being dishonest.    

15% reduced incomming accuracy is afaik more worse than 15% health buff

since tank splash ignores accuracy and there are dmg modifiers when something is calculated as a hit (like 0.75 dmg) in this case its just like 3/4 of 15% health buff

What crack are you smoking.  Received accuracy is the best hp buff in the game, extra health the worst.    Received accuracy allows you to dodge shots completely including from things like V1 and 15% less received accuracy is statistically 17.6% extra hp, same as 15% less received damage.  

Now compare that with 15% less received accuracy on rifles and airborne from the airborne t2 and tell me its balanced.  The airborne one is vastly superior and its a t2.

Honestly, I think we need less stat buffs and more...unique changes.   I for one would be interested in something like the following:


Allied Grit:

Riflemen and Rangers now uses the heroic infantry critical table, note: this the critical table, not the targetting table.

[Mysthalin]

Riflemen and Rangers now uses the heroic infantry critical table

So they would laugh at snipers, but burn horribly when faced with flamethrowers?

Tanks wouldn't be able to touch me

Care to elaborate?

Tanks would just gib you 8-15 men at a time, and the coaxial/hull, god forbid a mounted MG would instarape the entire squad. I have made 30 men squads just for the heck of it - they run around in a perfect square, losing men from each pak shot.

[gamesguy2]

So they would laugh at snipers, but burn horribly when faced with flamethrowers?

Fail.   Read my post and let it sink in this time.

Hint, flamers have no bonuses vs heroic armor critical table.  It would be exactly the same as regular infantry.

Care to elaborate?

Tanks would just gib you 8-15 men at a time, and the coaxial/hull, god forbid a mounted MG would instarape the entire squad. I have made 30 men squads just for the heck of it - they run around in a perfect square, losing men from each pak shot.

How would you even pack 15 men into the aoe of a tank?   Coax does very little damage so it hardly matters.   Why would a mounted MG instarape the entire squad, it would rape a squad at the same speed as it would rape another squad of equal squad hp, slower actually, because after it kills each guy the MG needs to stop and retarget, the accuracy incremental modifier is only 2% for everything except real MGs, and you wouldn't even be able to fit the whole squad in the search radius anyways.

A 30 men squad would be a terrible thing to behold.  Although thats probably a little too excessive for CoH.   A 12 men squad with say 35 hp each would be extremely powerful in EIR.     Go take a P4 and try to kill a 12 men squad with airborne armor and 35 hp with 2 RRs, now test it against a regular airborne squad with RRs.    I will bet my right nut that the 12 men squad will fare much better.

[Mysthalin]

12 men with 35 HP each would be quite powerful, yes. It would be tripple the grenadier squad, with just a bit less than half HP for each man. It would be much more powerful than one with 30 men 15 HP each, even though having less health per squad.

Fail.   Read my post and let it sink in this time.

Hint, flamers have no bonuses vs heroic armor critical table.

Fail, ad hominems ftw. Don't you think snipers not being able to injure riflemen would be a bit... too powerful? T4, maybe, not a T3.

How would you even pack 15 men into the aoe of a tank?

Try modding a squad like that in, and you will see. They don't spread out at all - they all stick in a perfect square formation, roughly in a 5 CoH meter radius from the central person. Incremental search radius would work wonders on it, and a tiger could quite possibly instagib the entire squad. P4s would just leave the squad half dead.

Coax does 3-5 damage per shot, if I'm not mistaken, depending on the tank. It would kill a guy every 3-7 shots(taking into account accuracy) at close-medium range.

[gamesguy2]

12 men with 35 HP each would be quite powerful, yes. It would be tripple the grenadier squad, with just a bit less than half HP for each man. It would be much more powerful than one with 30 men 15 HP each, even though having less health per squad.

12 men with 35 hp is exactly the same hp as an airborne squad.  Try again.

Fail, ad hominems ftw. Don't you think snipers not being able to injure riflemen would be a bit... too powerful? T4, maybe, not a T3.

Learn what the word ad hominem means, coming from you it holds no meaning.  Purposely ignoring what I posted and then turning it around accusing me of ad hominem when I point it out to you just makes you look like an ass.

No I don't think snipers not being able to kill riflemen with one shot is especially powerful, considering almost no one uses axis snipers anyways and shooting rifles with snipers is quite possibly the worst possible use you can put snipers to(other than shooting vehicles I suppose).

The main benefit of heroic armor crits is it makes the squad more difficult to kill until all its health has been depleted, but it wouldn't lower the amount of damage done to the squad.  

How would you even pack 15 men into the aoe of a tank?

Try modding a squad like that in, and you will see. They don't spread out at all - they all stick in a perfect square formation, roughly in a 5 CoH meter radius from the central person. Incremental search radius would work wonders on it, and a tiger could quite possibly instagib the entire squad. P4s would just leave the squad half dead.[/quote]

Thats only if you do it wrong.    Make a squad leader and set the other 29 guys to follow.  They don't walk around in a square.

Incremental search radius is only a large buff on HMGs.  Mounted MGs only get 5% compared to 12%, and the search radius wouldn't even cover the whole squad.

Regardless, you are wrong.  If you took a 30 men squad with 15 hp each and used only a mounted MG to kill them(M8 with 50 cal but have the main gun attack ground somewhere else), I bet they would last longer than a squad of 3 men with 150 hp each.   The delay before retargetting and the turret turn rate would negate any acc bonuses the MG gets for shooting at such a large squad and then some.

Coax does 3-5 damage per shot, if I'm not mistaken, depending on the tank. It would kill a guy every 3-7 shots(taking into account accuracy) at close-medium range.

Go check the accuracy on the coax and then get back to me.

[Mysthalin]

Discussing with you is pointless, with your attitude and "classy" flaming of anyone you encounter of the forums. You're nothing more than an educated troll, and I thusly end this discussion.

And "coming from me"?

I'm not the one that held an inflamatory signature towards another forum member, with the idea being coppied from bigdick.

[EliteGren]

Now that he proved you wrong in every single point, you just say ok im outta here basically?

[CafeMilani]

and the winner iiiiiiis GAMESGUYYY!

[Mysthalin]

No, I'm just not bothered to discuss with a person that bases all of his arguments with "you fail", "you suck", "go do this and that" and other forms of arrogant bullshit. Kind of why noone bothers to discuss with aloha.

[Wolster]

Another classic discussion grinds to a halt, what have we learned.

Dont bother posting threads or opinions unless you wish to be mauled at the hands of elitist community scum, intent on massaging their egos at the hands innocent topic posters, man they must have interesting lives to get so excited about these discussions (im presuming girlfrinds are sadly lacking from these lives).

[Demon767]

Another classic discussion grinds to a halt, what have we learned.

Dont bother posting threads or opinions unless you wish to be mauled at the hands of elitist community scum, intent on massaging their egos at the hands innocent topic posters, man they must have interesting lives to get so excited about these discussions (im presuming girlfrinds are sadly lacking from these lives).

no they have wives.

[Mgallun74]

From somebody with extensive exp with us rifles and us inf doct, these buffs dont do all that much.. they are still on a weak ass platform, i have the 10per suppress and 15 per health increase, and even at vet3 the rifles are still like paper, u have to pick and choose your engagements because once u get 1 burst of mg42 fire you dudes are lying on the ground and easy prey...

[CafeMilani]

ofc does the mg42 suppress them. but vet3 rifles are pretty awesome with bars in terms of damage output.

[Groundfire]

I would be very much in support of a change to the heroic crit tables as gamesguy said.

Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. It would make good synergy with the triage, due to the fact you'd have more men to heal when the squad limps back to the shack.

[Tymathee]

ofc does the mg42 suppress them. but vet3 rifles are pretty awesome with bars in terms of damage output.

right..so do vet 3 volks with mp40's and vet 3 grens with lmgs (which are just fuckin uber) so wahts your point? If your infantry survives long enough to vet 3 they should be able to do real well.

[Baine]

ofc does the mg42 suppress them. but vet3 rifles are pretty awesome with bars in terms of damage output.

right..so do vet 3 volks with mp40's and vet 3 grens with lmgs (which are just fuckin uber) so wahts your point? If your infantry survives long enough to vet 3 they should be able to do real well.

Why? Because they become super human?