[WM] Panzer IV

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[RikiRude]

the problem with P4 spam is the fact that a P4 is a multitasker, it can handle a sherman and it can handle infantry.

sherman can handle infantry and light vehicles, an upgunned sherman will do decent against infantry if it also has the .50 on top. and that's a what, 110 muni sink? for the upgun and the .50 . the true problem lies in the pricing of the upgun and the pricing of the skirts. upgunned sherman should be beating a P4 with minimal problems, right now the upgun only levels the playing field a bit with a skirted P4. if upgun is going to cost more then skirts, then it should be more effective imo. although look at how much it's gone down in price and you still don't see it on many shermans unless someone is playing armor.

either way it's just stupid to be using your shermans to fight armor. its a waste of resources to give them the upguns, even with tusken tipping you shouldn't want to fight a P4. which sucks because in old EiR TT let your unupgunned sherman take on P4s pretty nicely. its just things are a bit different now so everyone has to adapt and get their mindset out of the old way things played out.

[Tymathee]

I just played a game where I had a full health sherman (no up-gun) vs a half health skirted p4 (vet 1) and I lost the fight because of the faster reload, the less damage from the skirts and possibly the vet 1 buff. (15% rec damage) so that's a total of 25%  rcv dmg with a vet 1 skirted p4, anyone else find this real screwed up? I should've been able to beat that p4 easy and he didn't even run away, it was a full health sherman and he knew he'd win the fight, basically 636 health vs 300  health and he still won! Total BS.

[Two]

Ive always thought p4s are OP. Compared to everyone elses general purpose tank.

[Tymathee]

We've just increased the price on manpacked AT so I wouldn't expect to see any further price increases on those right away. My point is that the issue of 'PzIV spam' Tym is experiencing probably has more foundation in the cheap and easy use of repair kits than it has in the 'excessive' use of sideskirts.

read my above post. It has nothing to do with repair kits or else i'd have mentioned it. Unknown you've known me for a while and you should know that I wouldn't be dumb enough to disclude that. The fact is that a Sherman even upgunned, can't beat a p4 skirted 1v1, therefore either teh skirts need to be increased to at least be 80 or 90 m uni, be moved to Vet 2 (because of the vet 1 rec dmg buff or else as soon as you get vet 1 you get skirts and a 25% and 40% reduction in damage incoming) or lower the price of the up-gun.

[Sixpack]

So we are back to "ZOMG P4 SPAM" again, are we?
Probably another two weeks till it is back to Jagd and KT being overpowered.

Axis tanks are the mainstay bread and butter of any wehr player because they are the units that keep the battlefield mobile for wehr while allied infantry can break threw on its own.

"Considering the ammount of allied handheld at I run into I would like to skirt my Kettenkrads."
^^ Should sum up how I view the battlefield, allies have no problems throwing in hh at with tanks or atgs and I started loving those RRs, just pick up three of em and go hunting allied tanks.

The way I see it the sherman is better at taking out axis infantry (small squad size probably being the main reason) while the P4 can better cope with allied tanks.


And if Unknown wants to box an increase in repair costs threw the sherman needs to go the same way.

Moving Skirts to Vet 2 = RR price of 220 at least, zooks 65 a piece, piats 160+ is what I am going to say and the Faust needs to get its old dmg table back with a cost of 40 mun 2 uses.

[wildsolus]

i want to reply to your post sixpack but it's so utter fail i can't.

[Malevolence]

Sixpack has a semblance of a point here. If P4 skirts go back to the way they were in EiR, RRs et c. have to go back to the way they were in EiR, which as I remember it was 220 munitions. Personally I'd rather just keep it like it is now.

[Sixpack]

i want to reply to your post sixpack but it's so utter fail i can't.

I would be at 300+ posts when I would make ones like this everytime I felt like it. (We realy need some forum moderation).

[gamesguy2]

We've just increased the price on manpacked AT so I wouldn't expect to see any further price increases on those right away. My point is that the issue of 'PzIV spam' Tym is experiencing probably has more foundation in the cheap and easy use of repair kits than it has in the 'excessive' use of sideskirts.

read my above post. It has nothing to do with repair kits or else i'd have mentioned it. Unknown you've known me for a while and you should know that I wouldn't be dumb enough to disclude that. The fact is that a Sherman even upgunned, can't beat a p4 skirted 1v1, therefore either teh skirts need to be increased to at least be 80 or 90 m uni, be moved to Vet 2 (because of the vet 1 rec dmg buff or else as soon as you get vet 1 you get skirts and a 25% and 40% reduction in damage incoming) or lower the price of the up-gun.

P4 with skirts penetration vs upgunned sherman at medium range is 0.56.  Damage and accuracy is the same, rof is 5 seconds.

Sherman with upgun always penetrates but have rof of 7 seconds.

Average dps of p4 vs sherman is (87.5*.56+87.5*.15*(1-.56))/5=10.9dps
Average dps of sherman vs p4 is 87.5/7=12.5dps, and sherman has 36 more hp.

Upgunned sherman has a significant advantage in a straight up 1v1 combat vs a skirted P4.   This advantage is much larger when you consider EIR tank combat is mostly one shot snipes and kiting, which hugely favors the always penetrating but slower reloading sherman.

If skirts are removed, and I think they should be, RRs and piats both need around a 25-50% cost increase.  Zooks probably should go up another 5 munitions each.

[AmPM]

Don't forget EIRR skirts reduce damage from tanks 10% as well, or they did anyway. Double check.

[Tymathee]

Don't forget EIRR skirts reduce damage from tanks 10% as well, or they did anyway. Double check.

they do

Sixpack has a semblance of a point here. If P4 skirts go back to the way they were in EiR, RRs et c. have to go back to the way they were in EiR, which as I remember it was 220 munitions. Personally I'd rather just keep it like it is now.

RR's were 220 more because they didn't want you fielding a wh ole army of AB. Remember, people used to run like 30 AB and 4 or so Shermans only. If RR's were 160 then, you'd have like 10 squads easy with RR's and would totally rape all tanks.

Dunno why you guys keep equating RR's and Skirted P4's, maybe it's cuz you know zooks suck and dont penetrate anymore and way less against p4's with skirts. I'm gonna post a vid of the replay of the fight i just had in which my sherman lost a  fight it should've won if the p4 didn't have skirts.

the fact is, skirts make p4's' waaay survivable and every p4 has them now you never see one without them, it kinda let you know how useful they are if  people are fielding 3-4 p4's easy company easy and using 180 munis on p4's.

[Computer991]

Nerf the p4? in that case...we'll fight you allies with sticks and stones,maybe it'll even out the war.

[AmPM]

If Skirts are removed, AT prices should stay the same, they are balanced around non-skirted armor. With skirts being priced to balance skirted tanks vs at weapons.

So you shouldn't see a price increase on Allied handheld unless there is a corresponding increase in schrek price. Afterall, their prices are based around the effectiveness of scheks compared to RRs and so on.

[Tymathee]

Schrecks >>> RR's.

Tell me something. If you had one slot to go and there's an RR and a Schrck on the ground next to each other, which do you pick up? The Schreck easy.

[Tymathee]

oh btw, Only Sherman gun gets nerfed against Skirts. All other AT guns (AT Gun, M10, M18, Pershing) all get their normal damage vs skirts or not.

Hand-held AT weapons get 25% dmg and penetration vs Skirts, yet they're only 60 mu. It's just way too cheap and easy to get.

[spinn72]

p4s are fine. 

Allies need to get more Tank Destroyers or ATGs in their army.  No more 4 or 5 sherman armies, all US need 2-4 tank destroyers and brits need 2 fireflys + max ATGs. 

[gamesguy2]

Schrecks >>> RR's.

Tell me something. If you had one slot to go and there's an RR and a Schrck on the ground next to each other, which do you pick up? The Schreck easy.

Thats hilarious, considering RRs cost 180 and shreks cost 140, it should be 2 RRs or one shrek.

I would definately pick two RRs over one shrek.    Same thing with piats, if I got to choose between two piats or a shrek I would pick the piats.

And no, handheld AT price is not balanced against unskirted tanks.   Or do you really think RRs are balanced vs tigers?

[Illegal_Carrot]

Skirts are fine. Stop bitching.

The truth is, Skirts are necessary for a P4 to be at all useful, or else it gets insta owned by everything. Skirts at least give it a fair chance versus HH AT, though it's still just as vulnerable to everything else.
1v1 against a Sherman, the difference (damage wise) between a skirt/non skirt P4 is only one shot, not much of a difference. 75mm Shermans still have a ~30% chance win against P4 (not that you should use only a 75mm alone against a P4 anyways), and 76mms will still own them all the time. Regardless, comparing a Sherman vs P4 is a pretty shitty way to balance Skirts.

I understand what you're saying about Bazookas vs Skirts, but it's hard to balance Skirts vs RRs/PIATs and not have Zooks get screwed in the end. I'd recommend a change to the Zooks stats to make it more in line with other HH AT, but I know the devs don't like to stray from vCoH stats.

And on a semi-related note, RRs and PIATs were the only weapons that needed the price increase; Schrecks were already a little overpriced, and Zooks were little more than pea shooters (though they did good at taking out light vehicles). AB/Brit players are going to end up paying more overall than Axis players, but their AT is still very cost-effective, whereas Schrecks are not. Before, Schrecks were hardly worth taking due to their high cost and low survivability; now they're simply a joke.
Axis AT keeps getting nerfed and nerfed. What next, PaKs can't shoot from cloak?

Tell me something. If you had one slot to go and there's an RR and a Schrck on the ground next to each other, which do you pick up?

The better comparison is 2 RRs vs 1 Schreck or 2 PIATs vs 1 Schreck. In that case, I'd take the PIATs/RRs every time.

Edit: Beaten by gamesguy. But still:

Thats hilarious, considering RRs cost 180 and shreks cost 140, it should be 2 RRs or one shrek.

The best comparisons would be RRs on AB (90Mu each) vs Schrecks on Storms (160Mu each), or PIATs on Sappers (60Mu each) vs Schrecks on Grens (140Mu each).
The sheer terribleness and inefficiency of Schrecks is laughable.

[crimsonrabbit]

P4s are just fine.
Its the dual KTs or Jagds that should be fixed before everyone starts to get them in their doctrine and battalion; same w/  dual pershings and dual tigers. P4s shouldnt be changed whatsoever, but if changed, it should be just a slight 5-10 munis increase on the skirts.

[Demon767]

You know this makes me laugh hard.

Taking off skirted to vet 2 and possibly raising the repair kits resources which in turn inceases RR - piat resources costs you will still see 4 P4's every company.
i kno i will still buy 4 p4s and a tiger, and i know lots of others will do so to, or you will just be doing is hurting yourself.

The fact is very simple, you hate vsing so many p4's, you hate that axis tactic, so your trying to stop it the best way you know how.