[WM] Panzer IV

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[Malevolence]

Thats because anti tank infantry are so cheap, even now.

I remember back in the day when a gren schrek was like 200mu.

I remember back in the day when I had like 4000mu in my company.

[RikiRude]

M10's will drop a P4 down to pretty low health. Never use a Sherman to fight other thanks if you can help it, its inefficient.

M18's can do it from Ambush as well.

For my AT I have 2 ATGs, 3 M18's, 2 M10's.

no way! that's the only AT you have? do you have AP rounds on them? or repair kits on any of those vehicles?

my problem is schrecks destroying my ATGs so i can't recrew them, getting shot by locked down marders where i have to use a jeep + atg to hit them.

ampm do you have any replays against 4 P4 companies where you use that set up? id like to see how i can improve my AT management.

[CrazyWR]

The problem is that in bigger games, it's compounded, especially if your team mates are not geared for so many tanks on field.
My Brit company is forever struggling with not enough AT/too many tanks to deal with.

Ya, I've found that its much harder to field adequate amounts of AT as Brits compared to Americans.  But then, I don't use Piats, so that might be part of my problem.  But generally 2 Fireflies and a couple of 6 pdrs should be sufficient with solid usage of bren button...

[VERTIGGO]

in old EIR as armor company once you got tungsten tipping on your shermans, you never had to upgun them because they could take on P4s a bit better. a vetted P4 you'd want to stay away from, but vanilla P4s were fine, heck even your m8 could throw a shot in too if you wanted it. so skirts helps negate the power of TT.

the "problem" is now, you don't see vanilla P4s... ever. i can't recall when i have seen a P4 that didn't have skirts. P4s might as well come with skirts and have the muni cost already included in their price. this is just the way eirr plays out now though.

First of all, I don't here any PE players complaining about the IST getting wasted by shermans, but it happens. The 75mm has the same role.

I also don't see AB squads without RRs, or Rangers without bazookas. Why are we trying to force people to field units without their upgrades? The sherman .50 cal suppresses and kill plenty of my volks and grens, but to force it to vet up before it upgrades is ludicrous.

Again, even with skirts, it only takes ~4 hits to knock out a P4 and with so much RR/AT/M10/Hellcat/T17/M8 mine "spam" (I understand that's the way it's meant to be used), my lone P4 has plenty of trouble as it is.

[Mysthalin]

No, the IST is a dedicated anti-inf tank.
The shermie is a generalist "do it all" tank.

Also, it takes 13 penetrating hits with an RR to kill a P4. And RRs have a 25 percent chance to bounce off a skirted P4.

It takes 12 penetrating hits with a T17 to kill a P4.
It takes 5 penetrating shots to kill a P4 with an M10/Hellcat.
It takes 10 penetrating shots to kill a P4 with a greyhound.
It takes 4 penetrating shots to kill a P4 with a 57.

[VERTIGGO]

Where do you get 13? just throwing in 3 extra for the heck of it? RR damage is 62.5, P4 health is 600. The issue becomes the difference between handhelds that outrange the tank, fire super fast, never miss and almost always penetrate. The P4 misses more than half of it's shots in my experience (whether from moving or just overall inaccuracy.

[Demon767]

L2P

Play smarter as allies, Lure your P4's in to a AT - Ranger ambush, and while he limps out to repair you have 12 pop over your enemy to move in and gain land. they would merely have 1 mg a mortar a pak or a shrek squad, Flank em its not hard.

It takes 4 penetrating shots to kill a P4 with a 57.

nuth' said.

[AmPM]

Riki, I'll try and get some.

I also like to mix in mines offensively and defensively, if you knock out their position, run forward and place some mines. Its sure to fuck up a tank or infantry unit.

My list right now:

8 Riflemen 4 w/ BAR
3 HMG
2 Mortars
1 HT w/ Flamethrower + mine engie
2 Engies with mines and detectors
1 Jeep
2 ATG
4 T17 (rarely used actually)
3 M8's (use all the time, far superior)
3 M18 (key word is AMBUSH)
2 M10 (these guys go after solo targets, in the last 2v2 i played I was able to effectively figure 8 around two Marders, killing both)

The problem with the M10 is that she likes to misfire a lot. But it still works out well enough. Just be patient, be careful with your AT, and do some ATG creeping.

[Malevolence]

The M10 misfire is dealt with by not giving it orders during windup I think, but that's very hard since it's a micro oriented tank destroyer using speed over armor.

[Tymathee]

The M10 misfire is dealt with by not giving it orders during windup I think, but that's very hard since it's a micro oriented tank destroyer using speed over armor.

+1, the best thing to do is give queued orders so it wont misfire. but yea, the misfire bug really makes m10's not be as  useful as they should be as is why you see a lot more m18's now even though their penetration is like 25% lower.

[Mysthalin]

Where do you get 13? just throwing in 3 extra for the heck of it? RR damage is 62.5, P4 health is 600

Go read what bonuses skirts grant against RRs.

issue becomes the difference between handhelds that outrange the tank

35 range on RRs, 40 on P4. Airborne Elite, everyone knows, is broken, and will be fixed soon.

fire super fast

7-8 seconds reload. 5 on P4.

never miss and almost always penetrate

They do miss, just their scatter angle is too low .
And they don't always penetrate.


All I can say is - try them out yourself, and see how you like them.

[LeoPhone]

shut up about the P4, hellcats and churhils are the problem. (m10 and light vehicle spam too, but thats just becouse of retarded screck price)

[AmPM]

lololol

Leo lost a lot to a couple well micro'd M10's that were smart enough to circle him at long range to prevent the schreks from hitting much.

[LeoPhone]

i only have one screck

[TheDrunkenSmurf]

there would be better an own topic but lets see

shrek vs sherman [140mun]:
aim - 1.5s ready aim+post fireing
acc - 0.35
pen - 0.88
dmg - 120
range - 35

= 0.308 avg for penetrating hit

= 36.96 avg dmg a salve


RR vs p4 (without skirts) [180mun]:

aim - 0.1s
acc - 1
pen - 1
dmg - 125
range - 35

= 1 avg for penetrating hit

= 125 avg dmg a salve

RR vs p4 (with skirts) [180mun-60mun for skirts]:

aim - 0.1s
acc - 1
pen - 0.75
dmg - 94
range - 35

= 0.75 avg for penetrating hit

=  70.5 avg dmg a salve


1. to keep it simple it does not include 15% deflected damage when a non penetrating hit was calculated (would favor low penetration or high accuracy)

2. generally it is much more difficult to kite RR ab

  - because of their close to zero aimtime (exists to prevent that they can fire on the move)
  - the RR is on a more survivable unit then grenadiers (stormtroopers are a different case)

3. my conclusion is to make RR upgrade double price of shrek squads would be balance this upgrades
  - advantages of RR are the lower aim time and difficulty to kite them and the unit RR come with
  - disadcantages are the fact that they are on a doctrinal unit


7-8 seconds reload. 5 on P4.

never miss and almost always penetrate

They do miss, just their scatter angle is too low .
And they don't always penetrate.


All I can say is - try them out yourself, and see how you like them.
[/quote]

[Demon767]

dont forget the increased penetration and increased damage RR's get through doctrine abilities.

[LeoPhone]

lololol

Leo lost a lot to a couple well micro'd M10's that were smart enough to circle him at long range to prevent the schreks from hitting much.

[FailHammer]

+1 for leo

[Mysthalin]

Well, to leo even my cromwell seemed OP. I mean, I crushed his terror officer while he was inside a building ;P.

[LeoPhone]

sry for that myst, tomorrow i got my new videocard, and my nolag pc will whoop ur asses