Thoughts on Allied Mortar Teams, and What Needs to be Changed

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[lionel23]

What's everyones thoughts on the current state of Allied Weapon support teams?  I myself am finding it very annoying how Wehr can bring out tons and tons of mortars and MGs and PE can bring out rapid firing 50mm HTs, Mortar HTs, and Marders and it seriously can grind allied teams to a halt.

Right now, Wehr mortar's long range and PE's vehicle armor and mobility totally outclass the US and British mortar (mobile 2in) team in terms of accuracy and damage.  Their vet tables need to be seriously looked at or a range increase or pop/price decrease for how lackluster they are.  Being more expensive than rangers in terms of MP and half their MU cost, I expect these things to actually contribute to the fight, but currently they get one-two shotted by enemy mortars due to having to get so close to them just to be able to hit them from the edge of their range.

Allied MMGs aren't too bad, but their shorter range means enemy infantry can just charge in and nade them regardless of suppression, while the axis HMG team can lock out entire areas.  Not a complaint of mine if it wasn't for the fact that, given no cover, the mortar team pretty much gets shot at by the HMG team due to how close they need to be XD

I propose the following changes to make the allied weapon support teams at least comparable or competive in dealing with their axis counterpart.

Allied Mortar (US)

Suggestion 1 (Range Increase) - Increase their range to match that of Axis mortar, so the allies have an effective counter to the basic axis artillery unit.  Being that currently US has only 3 forms of artillery (105mm, mortar, and calliope), I would prefer longer range on our mortar as the axis have numerous counters to own own (currently their mortar which I hope should be outclassed by ours, nebs, walking stukas).  In addition, PE's mortar equivalent is totally immune to our mortar as its a vehicle and the crew cannot be touched.

Suggestion 2 (Significant Price/Pop Decrease - In Effect larger number on field) - Decrease price of the mortar, as well as pop cap.  Say something around 240MP and 20 MU and 2 POP CAP?  Being a short-ranged mortar that can't deal with equal numbers of axis mortars (say 3 well defended axis mortars and 3 well defended allied mortars).  By reducing the cost, we get a cheap mortar whose weakness in the axis superior version would come in play as more a 'strength through numbers'.  It would be like 'You may outrange me, but you're going to mortar two of my other teams while my third can move into position to attempt to counter mortar you!'

Suggestion 3 (Drop most useful vet range bonus for a fragile, expensive unit to something that can practically be attained and isn't just a pipe dream) - Change Veterancy bonus.  Move Vet 3 range bonus to Vet 1 or 2.  This would make it so that struggling allied players will work hard to get that initial vet and then have something comparble that can deal with the axis mortar, but perhaps not make it so its available off the bat?  And with Infantry's 'Locked and Loaded', it would make it a much more attractive doctrine choice to be asking as an Infantry Company player 'Hmmm.... this T3 makes my mortars the same as theirs to help my allies so we don't get outranged all the time.... let's pick this choice!' and thus encourage the use of mortar teams as currently it's far better to mass rangers/riflemen to spread out all the damage rather than attempt to counter it.

What's everyone's thoughts on this?

[Mukip]

There's definitely a lack of support weapon usage going on right now for allies, instead we are seeing endless vehicle spam.  I think the 2inch mortar should simply work like the american mortar for a start, it's really frustrating to pay so many resources for such a turd.  Brits have always been lacking against support weapon-based armies, it's about time they got a viable mortar like everybody else.

Price decrease for american mortar would be a good idea rather than a range increase, we should maintain the differences between factions.  AP rounds could use a price reduction on American HMGs, they are very situational and even if you use them the axis vehicle can move out of the HMGs range or cone of fire easily enough.

My suggestions:
*Replace 2inch Mortar with a normal mortar for Brits for appropriate cost. 
*Reduce manpower cost of Commando Mortar to 450 manpower from 495 (it is not as powerful as it was when there were no offmaps or doc abilities in the game)
*Reduce American Mortar cost by 30 manpower, 20 muni
*Reduce cost of AP burst for HMG to 15-20 muni from 30

[bbsmith]

You are aware the mortar is already quite a bit cheaper than the axis mortar and already gets the same range as the axis mortar at vet 1?

[Mukip]

It says in the launcher that it gets a range boost at vet 3...

[bbsmith]

Its wrong.

[Mukip]

Ok, in that case perhaps the american mortar is fine, but the other points still stand.

[spinn72]

Axis Mortar ->  480/65
Allied Mortar -> 350/50
Brit Mortar -> 380/30
Mortar Pit -> 450/65

Axis Mortar as you see is extremely costly by the fact that its 480 manpower.  It costs more than the mortar pit which is the ultimate mortar.

Allied Mortar could use a 10 munitions decrease.  The manpower cost seems fine.  Brit mortar is correctly priced but needs a +5 range buff i think to be useful.

The Whermact Mortar is meant to be better than the Allied mortar in both range and damage.  However since you can field many more US mortars its much easier.  Remember when you destroy the Whermact mortar to either Recrew it yourself or destroy the gun. 

[bbsmith]

Well this post is of no use anymore, since its a response to a deleted one.

[RikiRude]

it doesn't matter how many allied mortars you can field, it matters how many are ON THE field. you can field 5 allied mortars, but if you have to bring them out one at a time, the axis mortar is always going to win. both allied mortars could be put to 3 pop cap, you could probably put the mortar pit to 5 pop cap. AP rounds on the MG should not be any less then 20 mu.

also everyone knows axis mortar does way more damage then an allied mortar. ive seen 2-3 allied shells land on an axis mortar and not kill it, many many times i see a single axis shell land on a 90%-100% mortar squad and kill it.

in fact one time i saw a wher mortar kill an entire rifle squad that was at like 65% health because they were bunched up and stuck on something lol.

[gamesguy2]

it doesn't matter how many allied mortars you can field, it matters how many are ON THE field. you can field 5 allied mortars, but if you have to bring them out one at a time, the axis mortar is always going to win. both allied mortars could be put to 3 pop cap, you could probably put the mortar pit to 5 pop cap. AP rounds on the MG should not be any less then 20 mu.

also everyone knows axis mortar does way more damage then an allied mortar. ive seen 2-3 allied shells land on an axis mortar and not kill it, many many times i see a single axis shell land on a 90%-100% mortar squad and kill it.

in fact one time i saw a wher mortar kill an entire rifle squad that was at like 65% health because they were bunched up and stuck on something lol.

So many inaccuracies in this post...

I kill wehr mortars with the US version all the time.  It has a faster fire rate making it more suitable for the , setup-> barrage-> fire 4 shells and move tactic.

The US mortar does more damage to infantry than the wehr version.  Wehr mortar does 36 damage, US mortar does 20 damage with a 2x dmg modifier vs infantry, for a total of 40 damage.

[Baine]

Seriously, it's not about the range or dmg, it is who shows his mortar first. You see him shooting your troops, if he doesn't move it, bäm, dead. And if he moves it, you can still shoot faster.

If you land your first shell it will be too late for the axis mortar to get out in most cases.

[MistenTHA]

Does the rate of fire matter? Looking at the barrage ability it's the same, only the default mortar fire is faster, which is still rather slow.

[Sixpack]

It is pretty fine as it is, you do not see many axis mortars and they have to deal with far more allied mortars in total, the only way to keep an axis mortar alive is keeping it moving all the time until you know the allied mortar is down.

The Mortar ht has better mobility but can also die far quicker because of its short range and allied at.

And considering an allied mortar gets a range increase at vet1 is pretty sweet (good to know....).

[deadbolt]

it doesn't matter how many allied mortars you can field, it matters how many are ON THE field. you can field 5 allied mortars, but if you have to bring them out one at a time, the axis mortar is always going to win. both allied mortars could be put to 3 pop cap, you could probably put the mortar pit to 5 pop cap. AP rounds on the MG should not be any less then 20 mu.

also everyone knows axis mortar does way more damage then an allied mortar. ive seen 2-3 allied shells land on an axis mortar and not kill it, many many times i see a single axis shell land on a 90%-100% mortar squad and kill it.

in fact one time i saw a wher mortar kill an entire rifle squad that was at like 65% health because they were bunched up and stuck on something lol.

So many inaccuracies in this post...

I kill wehr mortars with the US version all the time.  It has a faster fire rate making it more suitable for the , setup-> barrage-> fire 4 shells and move tactic.

The US mortar does more damage to infantry than the wehr version.  Wehr mortar does 36 damage, US mortar does 20 damage with a 2x dmg modifier vs infantry, for a total of 40 damage.

Am i right in thinking the wehr mortar deals more supression? Or is that just with doctrine buffs?

[CafeMilani]

allied mortar > axis mortar

simply because the rate of fire (rate of dropping shells) is much higher and it does more damage.

pop decrease? lol
price decreae? lol!

pointless thread imo

i would always exchange my axis mortar against an allied one because its cheaper AND better for me

[lionel23]

So really the veterancy list that is stickied in the EiR Balance Thread and the launcher is wrong? Then both need an update to show that! ^^

But I do still stand by the fact that a lot of allies don't feel too many compared to their wehr counterpart, if the vet 1 range thing is really in for the allied mortar, then I feel its fine.

[Unkn0wn]

The vet in the unit price list is largely correct but there may be some minor errors indeed.
(I recall the mortar vet 1 range bonus as well but can not confirm whether or not we have changed this already)

[bbsmith]

Unknown doesn't take my word for it? :p

[Tymathee]

Allied mortar and British mortar are both better than the axis mortar in that they do more damage but the wehr mortar does more against Allied infantry because of the smaller health. I constantly get vet 1 with my mortars if I can keep them alive without getting off-maped or counter-mortared.

(BTW Vet List Here http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=8543.0)

I'll tell you the difference between the mortar and what makes each good at what they do.

Ami Mortar = 20 dmg with a x2 dmg vs most infantry targets, best ROF.
Because of the higher ROF, you can stick and move better than the wehr mortar. If you can get into range of the wehr mortar, you can take it out faster than it can take you out.

Brit 2in Mortar = 30 dmg shortest range of all mortars, x2 dmg vs most infantry targets, okay ROF
Strongest mortar in the game (unless Salan changed the mortar, i need to check and see if its still this powerful) the problem is it's short range, therefore at its longest range, it's a bit inaccurate but it's great at taking out garrisoned targets because of the high damage + x2 dmg

Wehr Mortar = 36 dmg, longest range, no modifiers, slow rof
What makes this so strong against the allied mortars is the long range. The other two hit harder but because at the shorter range where the allied mortars need to get in range, the wehr mortar is a lot more accurate than the others and will hit more often, plus most allied infantry have 55-65 health per man.

PE Mortar
A bit lower range than Ami mortar (70 as opposed to 75 for ami) and is highly mobile plus you can't counter-mortar it.

I think they're all pretty much balanced, you just can't use each one the same way as the other.

[RikiRude]

i think this has nothing to do with the allied mortars and more to do with squad size/health.
sure an allied shell does all that damage, but often times when a shell lands it wont kill any of the gren squad, itll just damage them, when axis mortar shots land it usually ends up gibbing one person.

can one of you dorks do a quick write up of health on a per member basis of each faction and compare it to the mortar damage they would be receiving?

i mean dork in the nicest way possible =)